Theres always an “Eloise”.
We should feed hungry children.
Eloise is making generalizations with no data. That’s how stereotypes and hurtful assumptions are formed.
The bow was put there because it’s cute and some people like cute things. Historically it seems men prefer their ladies to not have panties. Why entertain an audience who doesn’t wear the clothes or that they rarely see?
It just comes off as Eloise having a problem with men and taking it out on a conversation that was about a fun and cute thing.
A problem with men? It’s one thing to assume and accuse (them). And another to dismiss a concern entirely (you).
It’s also a different thing entirely to try and sanewash their statement as if it’s a legitimate concern.
It isn’t, she’s declaring the bow is there because it infantalizes women — which is strictly false. We then have to wonder why she made the statement in the first place. This leads us to two options 1) she’s an idiot, or 2) she’s a misandrist.
Take your pick. The answer is likely both.
I don’t even know what you’re responding to.
But you don’t know it’s false. You’re not the designer of the garment. The designer might have seen a reference second hand and for e.g. liked the ‘cute aesthetic’.
It’s a well known skeuomorph you trog, you’ve earned your tag.
What’s a yrog?
Found the Eloise
I am actually very patriotic.
To who?
Furthermore, cut the homeless population in half.
You monster
This is something called skeuomorphism. Products that have ornamental design cues from structures that were necessary in it’s original design. They employ elements that, while essential to the original object, serve no pragmatic purpose in the new system, except for identification. The bow serves no practical or structural purpose but it’s kept there to hark back to the old product before elastic became common.
Like clothes without real pockets?
Penelope, you are buying underwear with bows. There are plenty without. I assume this is your underwear fashion choice.
I want mens underwear with these little bows. I want to feel pretty too but my junk needs room
It’s the tiny handle on the syrup bottleI always wondered if those are structurally sound enough to be slung from a small rope.
I’m also not willing to risk my delicious maple syrup to find out.
You could probably use it to hang it from a small hook. Like if you wanted a dedicated syrup hook in your bedroom
Water and syrup have about the same weight, give it a shot with an empty bottle.
How do bows infantilize people?
Ask why there are bows on panties but not bows on boxers or briefs.
Because bows are seen as feminine? Since when is femininity infantilizing?
Bows aren’t seen as feminine. Otherwise it would be an insult to give a man a present wrapped in a bow. They’re seen as childish. Men wouldn’t take it as a challenge to their manhood if you gave them a present wrapped in a bow. If your work uniform included a big shiny bow on the front, you would feel pretty damn infantilized.
Or in this specific case, the bow is meant to say “this body is a gift, an object, a thing to be conquered or obtained.” Literal objectification. And this particular objectification only applies to women’s bodies, not men’s. Men get to receive the gift of a woman’s body, but women don’t get to receive the gift of a man’s body. Men have agency, women don’t. Classic infantilization, the stripping of agency.
Or, for a more specific example. Grown women don’t tend to wear a lot of bows in their hair. That’s something for young girls primarily. Same reason you don’t see 40 year old women dressing up as fairy tale princesses. Fairy tales princesses aren’t a feminine thing, they’re a children’s thing.
I hope you come to terms with your inner demons.
I hope you come to terms with your nihilism.
I don’t think it matters if one comes to term with nihilism
Thank you for understanding nihilism. I was about to write the same thing as you.
I like the bow because it helps me identify the front when dressing in the dark.
i like the bow because it makes me feel pretty when i drop my pants to use the toilet
Among other things.
What else would one drop to use the toilet?
The mic
So why don’t men’s underwear still have a bow?
Because our society doesn’t value men wearing pretty things
i value men wearing pretty things
especially thigh high socks and skirts and crop tops
:3
:3
:3
For the second comment, if the bow is there to please men and infantilize women, why don’t you just buy a pair that doesn’t have the bow? I’m all for calling out sexism and over sexualization, but i think this is just a case of capitalism being capitalism. Panties with bows probably just sell better to a significant demographic of women.
Your only mistake is taking that ragebait comment seriously in the first place. Bows have nothing to do with children. They are used all over the place as a decorative element.
How come it’s just rage bait when women say shit like that but when it’s a guy suddenly it’s ‘all men are bastards!’?
How come everytime gender is in the discussion some guy like you shows up and creates a completely unrelated strawman to feed his victim fetish?
I al responding to one someone literally fucking said you twit.
How many men’s steel toe work boots have you seen sold with a big happy bow on them?
All of them, once they’re tied.
They aren’t a common decorative element in mens things (unless you count like, bow ties), and work boots generally don’t have decorative elements at all. But they’re still a pretty common decorative element, outside of use for children.
Ok. So bows are seen on women’s things and childrens’s things. And sexism almost always involves stripping agency and the infantilization of women. And you are unable to make this connection…why exactly?
I mean, I don’t see bows on young boys things. I see them on women’s things and young girl’s things. The connection is to femininity, not childhood.
If I’m not mistaken, bows used to be a lot more common on (rich) men’s clothing. But, similar to the high heel, has mostly fallen out of fashion in masculine fashion.
You’re right. Women’s workboots demonstrate this unfairness. Men deserve bows on their panties too.
You’re right. Women’s workboots demonstrate this unfairness. Men deserve bows on their panties too.
Anatole France is spinning in his grave.
The law, in its majestic equality, forbids the rich and poor alike to sleep under bridges, to beg in the streets, and to steal bread.
Are you arguing about sexism in clothing design by seemingly implying that women don’t wear work boots?
Possibly not the best way to argue about the sexism endemic in clothing design.
If you want to get into it, you go to body hair removal. Adults have body hair. Children do not.
Wait, do people seriously think that the beauty standard that has women remove body hair is because men want them to look prepubescent??
yes. that is a common take from the angry feminist crowd who have extremist takes and think everything anyone does is a product of their internalized misogyny or something.
what’s so funny is they don’t seem to understand how their takes are active reinforcement of those same things they tend to be against… and their views are incredibly sexist and reductionist… but hey THEY ARE DOING IT FOR FREEDUMB from gender oppression so it’s totally cool if they hypersexualize people… and children.
What exactly am I doing then when I shave my armpits as a man? I’m so confused, help me!
you’re being gay.
I’ve been worse
The patriarchal society we live in finds natural body hair on women to be grotesque. The norm in this society is for women to remove their body hair in order for their bodies to resemble, at least in this aspect, those of prepubescent children.
If you actually look at the history of body hair removal, it’s almost always been associated with cleanliness and purity and from there social status.
The modern variation started with darwinism and the assertion that body hair was more primitive and undeveloped. Hairlessness was then cast as more evolved. Spectrum of ape to human has a clear hair gradient, so obviously less hair means less ape-ish, and hence more desirable.
In the past few hundred years the evolution aspect has been giving way to the purity and cleanliness aspect again.The sexism is in who our society finds purity and cleanliness more important for. Trying to tie that double standard back to pedophillia just makes people more prone to dismiss the entire thing.
The driving factor can be seen more in how people talk about beards, but also womens. People say clean shaven men look clean, professional, and so on. We all know what images come to mind if I say to picture a neckbeards room.
People aren’t infantalizing men by appreciating a removal of a prominent secondary sexual characteristic.
For women, you said it yourself:finds natural body hair on women to be grotesque
You didn’t say “old”, or any of the myriad fucked up terms some people have for women older than 25, you said “grotesque”. Society finds it gross or unclean.
The sexism is right on the label. You don’t have to go digging for it.
Society has significantly higher standards for hair removal for women than men, likely related to how society has higher standards of “purity” for women than men. Men have an “out” where the masculinity of male hair can also be positive, but there’s no corresponding feminine hair boost.
Eloise would probably respond that internalized sexism makes women want the bow as well, because society makes women want what men want…or something like that
I mean, social standards having a sexist bias and hence people inside that society earnestly express the standards they were raised in is a thing.
It’s not that society makes women want what men want, it’s that society sets standards that everyone works towards, and it’s also set different ones for men and women.
There’s no harm to a cute bow on underwear, nor to recognizing that fashion trends currently find that less acceptable on mens clothing.The people who tie different gender standards and norms back to the sexual are just making it weird for no good reason.
Because that little bow leads to better sales
Because people like it and thinks it’s cute.
decorations suck, don’t change my mind
… Just in general…?
I’m not here to change your mind, but I’m curious to know more
ehh, i’m particularly against any and all kinds of makeup and earrings.
the reason isn’t even so much with how it looks, but for different reasons.
young women are told that they aren’t beautiful when they don’t wear makeup. then the makeup store sells them makeup. the young women go out, and if they make positive experiences, they subconsciously attribute it to the makeup. “well i did my makeup properly, of course i’m making positive experiences”
instead, if there was no makeup at all, they would still make positive experiences, but attribute it to themselves / other people around them, instead of to the glorious company that sold you the product that makes you worthy of love and attention.
There’s no subconsciously attributing it to the makeup. It’s conscious. People treat me better when I work to fit society’s accepted beauty norms.
And not like, people smile more. I mean when I’m done up, businesses give me free stuff. I am not charged entry fees. And also individuals are kinder and more attentive. When I go out in comfy clothes with no makeup, no one is rude to me, but no one is saying at the cash register, "that’s so small, you can just have it. "
Pretty privilege/ the halo effect is a real, documented thing.
I think we agree that the only way to combat it is to get rid of makeup completely. Just pointing out it’s not subconscious and saying it’s a completely real thing, definitely not in people’s heads.
Fuckin hell, seriously? You just get things given to you?
Yes, and I’m not super hot, just basically regular looking, but much better looking with hair/ makeup/ outfit. It’s usually stuff like dessert but I’ve been gifted bottles of wine (to take, not like offered complimentary at dinner). Most recently I got to the register with a book and they were like that’s so little, you can just have it. Not at a big corporation where the cashier just doesn’t care, at a privately owned place.
This kind of thing never happens when I’m not done up, so I feel like it’s directly related.
just ask young black guys how they are treated when they wear a suit, vs wearing a hoodie.
hell, i’m good-looking white guy, and I notice a massive difference in how people react to me when i’m wearing my dog-walking at 7am outfit, vs my ‘going to the office today’ clothes. which one do you think gets me the suspicion/scared/concerned looks?
it’s also just totally bizarro to me people think I should dress up to walk my fucking dog when it’s not even full daylight yet.
