If OP thinks those conversations haven’t been had, they are living in blissful ignorance.
I think the target audience for that tweet are the Obama worshipping, white, upper middle class, suburban Democrats. This country has done a lot of fucked up shit under Reagan, Clinton, W, Obama, Trump, Biden, and again now Trump. I’m not sure about HW Bush, but he use to head the CIA so…
There’s only so far one can claim ignorance as an excuse. I blame it on a mentality in the USA of people having such bad experience in public education that they “don’t want to learn no more.” The desire to question and expand one’s knowledge was ground away. As well it was easier to live in ignorance before the internet. Now it feels more of a choice.
These days? Sure. But back then it was a much different country. And a lot of solders came back as liberals, but according to lemmy they deserve to die anyway
Ah, so murder is okay as long as you’re part of certain groups? Or is just being poor enough? Lower middle-class? Or is it a point system where you get enough and are excused so LGBT middle-class are still good people but a middle class straight man is a murderous monster?
Don’t confused patriotism with nationalism. Nationalists are rooting for ICE and Trump and all of those asshats. Nicole Good and Alex Pretti, and the many others out there still, are all Patriots.
Edit: I misspelled Alex Pretti’s name. My sincerest apologies.
Right I see. In case you happen to be interested, Hannah Arendt suggested a system of federated councils which I find interesting. I’m not an expert on it, but there are some essays about it like this.
Fundamentally there are two kinds of nationalism: civic and romantic. Civic nationalism is about people adhering to a society’s set of laws and values. Romantic nationalism, also known as blood and soil nationalism, incorporates those concepts of birthright and bloodlines as important to one’s status in a nation.
The United States was a major pioneer and proponent of the civic kind, defying the traditional romantic nationalism that grew out of Europe. Despite our historical misgivings it’s an important difference.
I’m sure there’s some basal level of them that make sense or seem natural. I do find it preferable to going off ethnicity or religion. Or the monarchist Divine Rights stuff with noble bloodlines and such.
Go where? It’s not like it was when Ellis Island was running. Anybody who immigrated through there would be an illegal immigrant today. Any Americans today whose parents or grandparents went through there are anchor babies who should be deported alongside the rest of their family under the current regime’s stance on immigration.
And it’s not any easier today to immigrate elsewhere. Unless you’re rich or have a degree that makes you a valuable commodity, most countries want nothing to do with you.
You must become an astronaut. That’s all that left when you start thinkin’ I gotta get the hell out of here. Just need to create your own world with its own rules.
Patriotism is defined as “love of country”, yes, but also “devotion to the welfare of one’s compatriots”. I personally believe there is nothing more patriotic than doing everything possible to root out a corrupt and harmful government.
I actually think the USA is a beautiful place and I want to protect it from those who would destroy it. The word you’re thinking of is jingoism, which is honestly a serious problem here
I never said that? The difference is as an American citizen I actually have some say in the welfare of Americans but by no means mistake me for a nationalist. I think you may need to touch up on the difference between patriotism and nationalism
Patriotism is just nationalism for people who haven’t grappled with the reality of patriotism. The core is still juxtaposing human worth and real estate.
I see what you’re getting at, and perhaps my definition of patriotism is more wistful than the reality of it, but I’ve always thought of patriotism as similar to family. You’re more devoted to them because you are closer to them and there’s a certain want to preserve that alongside the places where it happened, y’know? And just like family, sometimes you have to override that devotion when the relationship becomes too toxic to maintain.
I feel like that’s where I’m at with the US. I’ve always been a naturalist at heart and I adore the landscapes of the country in particular, but it’s like a toxic parent. I try my best to pursue reform but I’m nearing a point where I’ll just have to leave and cut my losses. But it is hard because I legitimately do love this country, just…not the government or the people who run it.
The problem ain’t just the Trump administration, it’s systemic and I wish more people here understood that. I just think it would be better for the whole world if the US could get its shit together instead of every person with a moral compass abandoning it to its inevitable doom and the subsequent suffering of everyone too screwed by the system to leave.
I care about the welfare of every living breathing human, but tbh I think fixing the US (however that’s done) would benefit a hell of a lot of people in a whole lot of places. This country’s global military presence is so pervasive and damaging, it’d be nice to put a stop to it.
If the want to truly fix this place makes me not patriotic, so be it, but I’ve always seen that as the definition of patriotic. Maybe I’m just naive tho
I seen you’ve made the common logical error of assuming the democrats worship their leaders. That’s something left wing and right wing extremists do in equal parts but everyone in between, is absolutely not worshipping any poltical leaders.
Sooo… the vast majority of Democrat voters? I know we’re all pretty big lefties here, but I’ve never met a single Democrat voter out in the real world who didn’t think Obama was the perfect president who did absolutely nothing wrong. My father in law - who has a degree in political science - keeps a photo of Obama in his wallet at all times along with pictures of his family members.
Sure, plenty of people have started to come to the realization that our soldiers are not heroically staving off evil abroad, but they’re still a tiny fraction of the American population as a whole.
You described most of lemmy. Not a person here has met a solder or had to deal with not having health care or not having any options of social mobility.
They want us to fight a revolution without anyone who can fight. And apparently Pretti deserved to die for helping fascists
If OP thinks those conversations haven’t been had, they are living in blissful ignorance.
I think the target audience for that tweet are the Obama worshipping, white, upper middle class, suburban Democrats. This country has done a lot of fucked up shit under Reagan, Clinton, W, Obama, Trump, Biden, and again now Trump. I’m not sure about HW Bush, but he use to head the CIA so…
Just have to look at the country’s history. This is business as usual, it’s just now affecting the moderates.
You are talking about people who got lied to all their lives when they where kids.
There’s only so far one can claim ignorance as an excuse. I blame it on a mentality in the USA of people having such bad experience in public education that they “don’t want to learn no more.” The desire to question and expand one’s knowledge was ground away. As well it was easier to live in ignorance before the internet. Now it feels more of a choice.
These days? Sure. But back then it was a much different country. And a lot of solders came back as liberals, but according to lemmy they deserve to die anyway
Not all of lemmy does, but there’s some out spoken people I’ve seen I disagree with.
Most the people posting here sure seem to be.
They we’re not that stupid when they left. They chose team murder willingly, that’s not something you can just shed like so.
It’s the only way to have any kind of social mobility in the US. Do you realize how many lbgtq and minorities end up joining? This shit isn’t simple.
And that on top of all the lies and brainwashing
Ah, so murder is okay as long as you’re part of certain groups? Or is just being poor enough? Lower middle-class? Or is it a point system where you get enough and are excused so LGBT middle-class are still good people but a middle class straight man is a murderous monster?
I didn’t say that. I just pointed out how this shit works.
The audience is really anyone who continues to feel even a scintilla of patriotism for this shithole.
Don’t confused patriotism with nationalism. Nationalists are rooting for ICE and Trump and all of those asshats. Nicole Good and Alex Pretti, and the many others out there still, are all Patriots.
Edit: I misspelled Alex Pretti’s name. My sincerest apologies.
As someone who knows the history of this country patriotism is barely distinguishable from nationalism.
Nationalism is the ideology that a certain people should have a state for themselfes.
Patriotism is the love for one’s state, but that state may have one or more people in it.
Which is why it doesn’t make sense to me, since I hate states in general and the United States specifically.
Right I see. In case you happen to be interested, Hannah Arendt suggested a system of federated councils which I find interesting. I’m not an expert on it, but there are some essays about it like this.
Thanks!
Fundamentally there are two kinds of nationalism: civic and romantic. Civic nationalism is about people adhering to a society’s set of laws and values. Romantic nationalism, also known as blood and soil nationalism, incorporates those concepts of birthright and bloodlines as important to one’s status in a nation.
The United States was a major pioneer and proponent of the civic kind, defying the traditional romantic nationalism that grew out of Europe. Despite our historical misgivings it’s an important difference.
Pure fantasy.
I don’t even like society’s laws and values, though.
I’m sure there’s some basal level of them that make sense or seem natural. I do find it preferable to going off ethnicity or religion. Or the monarchist Divine Rights stuff with noble bloodlines and such.
So leave.
“Have you tried just not being a mutant?”
Go where? It’s not like it was when Ellis Island was running. Anybody who immigrated through there would be an illegal immigrant today. Any Americans today whose parents or grandparents went through there are anchor babies who should be deported alongside the rest of their family under the current regime’s stance on immigration.
And it’s not any easier today to immigrate elsewhere. Unless you’re rich or have a degree that makes you a valuable commodity, most countries want nothing to do with you.
I would but there’s nowhere without a country to go to
You must become an astronaut. That’s all that left when you start thinkin’ I gotta get the hell out of here. Just need to create your own world with its own rules.
That’s the plan: become an astronaut, hollow out an asteroid with sunlight, and build an O’Neill cylinder inside.
It is a meaningless distinction.
Patriotism is defined as “love of country”, yes, but also “devotion to the welfare of one’s compatriots”. I personally believe there is nothing more patriotic than doing everything possible to root out a corrupt and harmful government.
I actually think the USA is a beautiful place and I want to protect it from those who would destroy it. The word you’re thinking of is jingoism, which is honestly a serious problem here
Ok, so if someone is not American, you don’t care about their welfare?
If no, thats internationalism, the opposite of patriotism, if yes, you see why we have trouble distinguishing yall from fascists, right?
I never said that? The difference is as an American citizen I actually have some say in the welfare of Americans but by no means mistake me for a nationalist. I think you may need to touch up on the difference between patriotism and nationalism
Patriotism is just nationalism for people who haven’t grappled with the reality of patriotism. The core is still juxtaposing human worth and real estate.
I see what you’re getting at, and perhaps my definition of patriotism is more wistful than the reality of it, but I’ve always thought of patriotism as similar to family. You’re more devoted to them because you are closer to them and there’s a certain want to preserve that alongside the places where it happened, y’know? And just like family, sometimes you have to override that devotion when the relationship becomes too toxic to maintain.
I feel like that’s where I’m at with the US. I’ve always been a naturalist at heart and I adore the landscapes of the country in particular, but it’s like a toxic parent. I try my best to pursue reform but I’m nearing a point where I’ll just have to leave and cut my losses. But it is hard because I legitimately do love this country, just…not the government or the people who run it.
The problem ain’t just the Trump administration, it’s systemic and I wish more people here understood that. I just think it would be better for the whole world if the US could get its shit together instead of every person with a moral compass abandoning it to its inevitable doom and the subsequent suffering of everyone too screwed by the system to leave.
I care about the welfare of every living breathing human, but tbh I think fixing the US (however that’s done) would benefit a hell of a lot of people in a whole lot of places. This country’s global military presence is so pervasive and damaging, it’d be nice to put a stop to it.
If the want to truly fix this place makes me not patriotic, so be it, but I’ve always seen that as the definition of patriotic. Maybe I’m just naive tho
So patriotism is just mutual aid + nationalism.
Why not just skip the last step? After all, the things I like about America would exist even if the nation doesn’t.
I think they’re talking about national socialism.
Worshipping Obama?
I seen you’ve made the common logical error of assuming the democrats worship their leaders. That’s something left wing and right wing extremists do in equal parts but everyone in between, is absolutely not worshipping any poltical leaders.
He was popular and his excellent oratory skills induced people that liked him to like him more personally
Yes, the target audience is definitely not the actual fascists who are supporting the brownshirts and their actions.
Sooo… the vast majority of Democrat voters? I know we’re all pretty big lefties here, but I’ve never met a single Democrat voter out in the real world who didn’t think Obama was the perfect president who did absolutely nothing wrong. My father in law - who has a degree in political science - keeps a photo of Obama in his wallet at all times along with pictures of his family members.
Sure, plenty of people have started to come to the realization that our soldiers are not heroically staving off evil abroad, but they’re still a tiny fraction of the American population as a whole.
Some people understand that the world is imperfect.
All the way back to Washington.
You described most of lemmy. Not a person here has met a solder or had to deal with not having health care or not having any options of social mobility.
They want us to fight a revolution without anyone who can fight. And apparently Pretti deserved to die for helping fascists