“Most US drivers”? Show me one US driver who needs to breath fossil emissions to survive.
My salvage title 2006 Honda Accord cost me $3200 in cash over 3 years ago.
Since then, I’ve spent maybe another $2000 total on ALL service and maintenance. Including a full set of tires, an alignment, oil changes, brake pads and rotors. A pair of wheel bearings, a new radiator, and a pair of tie rod ends.
All of which I did myself.
Oh, and my monthly insurance premium for this car?
$32 a month. No car note. “But electric cars don’t buy gas either” No. They use electricity. And my average monthly power bill is already over $400 a month. You think I want that to be even higher? No way.
Yea, I get that EVs are better.
But I don’t do car notes. I can’t AFFORD to do car notes.
So until I can buy a 17 year old EV for $3200 cash and only need another couple thousand to keep it running for an additional 3 years, I will stick to the used ICE market.
They use electricity. And my average monthly power bill is already over $400 a month. You think I want that to be even higher?
Some of your concerns may be valid, but I pay relatively high prices for electricity, 35¢/kWH, and even at that price, the hit to my electric bill is half what I used to spend on gasoline. Current gas price make that even better
It’s less about the gas and electricity than it is about adding a car note and higher insurance.
Most people can’t repair a car themselves, especially true if it’s something more complicated than brake pads and rotors. If you adjust your numbers to reflect what it would have cost if you had to pay someone for repairs I’m guessing it might seem a little crazy to invest that much in such an old car. If one were in a wreck and the car was totalled, insurance pay out wouldn’t get close to the amount invested.
Me… I’m still driving a 20 yr old car. Low mileage since I’ve worked from home most the time I’ve owned it, but it’s definitely showing its age. I can afford a new one but why would I want to right now? It still runs well and I have no desire to drop $50k on something to replace it. Happy now to keep my money saved.
If you’re poor, you learn how to do these things.
Oh I get it. But not everyone has the aptitude, the tools and/or someone to teach them. Brakes and rotors aren’t too tough, and I taught my son and helped both my SILs but not everyone has that. I did ball joints a long time ago, starters, an alternator… but my dad helped and that gave me the confidence to attempt other stuff. But one expensive mistake can really cost you too and can discourage people from trying again.
Yeah, your electric bill would be higher but the increase in electricity you’d pay will be less than what you currently pay for gas, saving money overall. Only issue is the up front cost to buy one in the first place. And all the spying shit recent cars come with.
And all the spying shit recent cars come with.
Yeah this and all the infotainment bullshit they’re putting in new cars is a huge incentive to just stick with my 15 year old ICE. If nothing changes I’m planning to drive this thing till it rusts to pieces. I don’t need or want all that extra crap. Just give me A/C, power locks and windows and a stereo and that’s it.
I live on the southern US coast. Unless I drive it straight into the Gulf, it isn’t likely to rust away. It’s a Honda, not a Dodge. 🤣
No. They use electricity. And my average monthly power bill is already over $400 a month. You think I want that to be even higher? No way.
Fueling costs per mile (using the term “fuel” rather loosely for EVs) are significantly lower for electric vehicles than combustion, even taking into account plugging the thing in at home with an extension cord. It’s going to be a rather long break even period when comparing to a salvage title clunker, but for someone shopping for a new car to begin with it makes sense.
It’s not costing anyone “less” to be paying at the pump. It’s just an easily forgotten regular expense that everyone is used to. Meanwhile, people have been conditioned to have a cow over seeing any increased number on their electricity bill even if it’s only a couple of bucks. Right now with local gasoline prices it costs something like $60 to fill up my Subaru from empty and nearly $150 for my truck (it has a 35 gallon tank!) and the former I could easily do twice a month if I weren’t riding so many motorcycles this time of year instead. In the Scoob, that’s around 784 miles of driving for $120 in fuel. That’s only be $47.04 if I had a reasonably recent EV and charged it at home.
I went through the same rigmarole replacing my house’s oil heat with mini splits. Yes, my electricity bill went up… On average something like $40 a month. Meanwhile I stopped paying $300 to $400 a month to my former oil company for five or six months out of the year. $2000 - $480 = a $1520 or so net yearly savings I proceeded to blow on camera lenses and more motorcycle parts.
A hundred or two a month won’t help me afford a $300 car note and a much higher insurance premium.
That would be why I included the caveat about someone already shopping for a new car.
You have to understand that the majority of buyers will not countenance buying a salvage titled vehicle and restoring it, let alone doing the work on it themselves. You’re in a rather unique situation there which is not going to be applicable to most people.
The OP’s position is reasonable given their circumstances, and several people, including you, have clearly said as much. Even industry and financial experts acknowledge that if someone already owns a functioning vehicle, the most economical and environmentally responsible choice is often to continue driving it until replacement becomes necessary, regardless of whether it is ICE or EV.
OP seems less interested in discussing practicality than repeated reaffirmation of “I do not want an EV.”
Yes. The problem with that is of course that this is tacit FUD which reads, whether intentionally or not, “I don’t want an EV therefore it won’t make sense for anyone else to drive one, either.”
There’s more than enough misinformation floating around about electric cars already. I specifically want to address the “your electric [sic] will go up real high!!!” argument I hear on a seemingly weekly basis these days, which is something that seems to make people particularly antsy.
Obligatory Technology Connections video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5NG4hycq8n0
Man, I would absolutely love an EV. As long as it’s paid off, and I can keep minimum liability insurance on it.
You completely missed my entire point.
They haven’t existed long enough for those of us struggling, and anyone who can afford one isn’t really struggling, they just think they are.
I get you. Thanks for the call out and clarifying. Decades of being on the internet has turned me into a grumpy pessimist🫥
I’d consider getting one because 90% of my trips are just around a 15 mile radius. I’m going to get a hybrid for my longer road trips to more remote places.
While that is what plugin hybrids are good for, remember that you don’t see the advantage unless you actually plug in for those local trips
You may also take a look into trip charger options for where you take road trips. So far I’ve found there are always multiple choices wherever I want to go, so there’s no reason for range anxiety. For me. And even without trip chargers, is there a chance to charge at your destination? Even the most rural places have electricity
That’s exactly what plug-Ins hybrids (PHEVs) are built for. You only need one of them. Mine starts in EV mode and switches on the fly from EV to hybrid and back with the touch of a button.
I just want a 70 mph enclosed golf cart that can go 150M, charge at home in a few hours, has a tablet size screen that does CarPlay and some speakers, and won’t kill me in a fender bender. I don’t need giant screens, self driving, door latches that won’t work without power, butt warming seats, integrated entertainment system, etc. Oh and maybe have it cost less than my first house (I had a cheap house)
Oh wow, who would have thought? It’s almost like demon oil companies were trying to hide this or something.
Pscht. The idiot president can’t ruin things he doesn’t know.
Sure he can. Just like a bull in a China shop can ruin things he doesn’t understand.
After 1 year ownership.
Zero maintenance costs this year, plus averaging around 3 to 5 cents per mile.My motorcycle costs more to drive and maintain.
It’s nice knowing that no matter how expensive gas gets, I’m unaffected by it. Power comes from solar.
Did you include the loan payment, assuming you have one?
What about the lease payment for the solar panels?
Did you include the loan payment, assuming you have one?
What about the lease payment for the solar panels?
I’m not the person you’re responding to, but I’m in the same situation of driving an EV and have solar panels.
I bought the solar panel system outright with no lease/loan. It is very much paying for itself and the full payback of the solar system continues to get shorter as electricity prices rise. When installed I had an 11 year payback. That has dropped to a 9 year payback now. I’m in a mostly red state that is is 20 years behind California in solar deployments. This means most of the rules that benefited early California solar buyers are still in place in my state. Full 1:1 net metering, option for discounted Time-of-use rates available only on EV charging.
As I’m posting this I’m pushing a KWh back to the grid and getting the full value of that KWh. I can draw back that KWh later tonight after the sun goes down. Even better, with the EV TOU I charge my EV not on sunlight, but instead after midnight and pay 75% only the cost of the KWh. All this banked money/energy I end up using later in the year when the home heating costs go up.
I know this won’t last forever. As my state catches up to the rest of the advanced blue states and we have a solar surplus during the sunlight hours I’ll be in the same situation as California solar users. However that still looks to be potentially 10 years out.
You can even buy solar panels at Harbor Freight these days. At the moment, nominal 100 watt panels for $95 each. If you can drive the screws and find somewhere to stick them, there’s no need to sign up for a predatory lease. To level one charge (i.e. 120v at 15 amps, 1800 watts) you’d only need 18 of the things, maybe call it 20 to have some fudge factor built in, that’s $1880 plus probably some bits and bobs for a frame and wiring, inverters, and so on.
That’d only be 151 square feet of panels. Your local code authority will probably have less to say about it if you have a solar carport plugged directly into your car and nothing else versus nailing them to your house’s roof, as well.
No you misunderstood. My power comes from the electric company. Their power comes from solar.
Loan is based on cost not type of vehicle.
My 1st EV paid its own note with the amount of gas I wasn’t buying to run it.
I cannot wait until somebody comes out with a hub drive elec motorcycle with a range of 100 miles or greater. No oil changes, no valve lash adjustments, no chain cleaning and slack adjustments, no Teflon containing chain wax or degreasers, just tires brakes and ride. I personally cannot afford an EV car, but motorcycles have been a great way for me to reduce my carbon footprint, cut my commute cost and have fun while doing it. But if it could be electrified I’d go into debt for it! Over winter I have to drive my Subaru and I spend roughly 40-50 a week on fuel, I’m pressed to spend half that on the bike. Always a relief when summer comes and I can shut down the oil furnace and park the car unless I need the payload area to move a bunch of shit. More and more electric bikes are coming out by the minute we are almost there 🤞
No ear splitting noise either. I’d support that.
Hell yea 🤙 I will say 90+% of the ear splitting noise comes from 2 distinct riders that are NOT the norm, Harley bros and squids. Both those fuckers will take their mufflers clean off because “loud pipes save lives” despite the fact that when they blow by u, u won’t hear so much as a mouse fart u till they have already passed you because their blast pipes are pointing BEHIND the bike blowing noise out the back and away, and in turn offer no warning to drivers in front of them and only serve to annoy those behind. And no cutting the muffler off will not get u more power. These are the same nubs that refuse to use the horn and instead will rev bomb, then grab a fist full of front brake at the last second and cry about how the car is the reason they “haddalayerdown” when there’s never an excuse to lay a bike down because you will always be better off on it. I’m a biker of over a decade and hate seeing / hearing these twats, they give the rest of us a bad name lol. Some of us just wanna save gas and reduce our environmental impact while enjoying the weather!
Not even a service?
The engine has one moving part and doesn’t need re-lubrication every year. Makes shit a lot simpler.
2 recalls, no cost to me. Brakes were serviced during that time free of charge. All they did was clean and check them. Also rotated tires for free.
My biggest expense I would assume will be my tires. It does weigh like 5400 lbs
Yes, tires are the only consumable that is worse. Especially since it’s hard to turn off the lizard brain and /not/ use the extra torque. Brakes basically rust off them with disuse and then there’s wiper fluid. They really should have old-school drum brakes.
You are not stopping 5400lbs on drum brakes.
Maybe with 200lbs drums?
You are, eventually, and into a brick wall!
Yup. We knew this. But they won’t let us buy the affordable cars because that sort of free market would put US companies out of business.
In this country, we have the FREEDOM to buy any overpriced domestic or foreign (assuming they’re on the list of good foreign countries) tank-sized SUV you want.
Yup. We knew this. But they won’t let us buy the affordable cars because that sort of free market would put US companies out of business.
While I mostly agree with you, the Chevy Bolt brand new can be had for $29,990. We really should have the option to buy Chinese EVs since the majority of other US car makers have abandoned the EV segment, and therefore deserve no protection from a market they are not in anymore.
A lot of people don’t realize that the big car thing is due to government regulation. X footprint vehicle must attain Y MPG lest fines or what have you, so manufacturers are legitimately being incentivized to make larger ballooned out vehicles because that puts them in a different bracket for mpg requirements that’s easier to attain. This is why the new 3 series is bigger than the old 5 series, etc
I’ve read this happened because sometime in the 80s comrade Reagan decided to own the Japanese instead of letting competition do its work (for cars, but with electronics similar things followed). He’s somehow often associated with liberal capitalism and so on, but the guy believed that “monopolies are efficient”, but at the same time by some magic if a monopoly stops being efficient, then all the capital and technology base for competition to replace it will just materialize in one place in one moment all by themselves. So I’m not even sure if “comrade” is irony. The ironic part is that the US president whose term coincided with Soviet system conclusively losing the Cold War is also the one who supported state capitalism and ideologic pressure in society.
Ronald Reagan Ruined Everything: https://music.youtube.com/watch?v=mSbtBwgSY-s
Who ever thought the US would be a place where the federal government would prevent you from buying the coolest cars and coolest drones? Lame.
Yeah, you’re living in state capitalism in the USA these days.
Yeah… Too bad that all EVs are spyware on the wheels. When car makers will be forced to stop or significantly reduce the amount of data they are collecting, I may consider buying one. Probably not going to happen in my lifetime.
Unless you plan on driving antique cars or living a short time, you are going to need to figure out how to rip out a cellular modem at some point to achieve that. There’s no difference between EVs and modern ICE cars on the surveillance tech.
Lol if you’re in North America look for an older ev with 3g. The network is shut down so there’s no way it can communicate as long as you don’t give it your Wi-Fi password.
I am. And I didn’t realize that’s a thing! But there is not many models… WV e-golf maybe a decent option
Yeah, leafs are cheap AF, if you can make due with the small range. They have passive cooling for the batteries like the egolf, but I’d be wary of an egolf since I don’t know how well they’re supported by 3rd parties like the leaf is.
I-miev didn’t sell well, and I’ve seen lots of problems with them, so I’d stay away from them. bmw i3 would be the most expensive of the older, 3g options both to buy and maintain.
The other option to consider if you don’t mind an even shorter electric range would be a phev like Chevy volt or Ford fusion. But your commute would need to be less than 10 miles for that to work.
Leaf has had active temperature management since Gen 2. They are now at Gen 3.
But the gen 2 leafs also have 4g, and that’s a deal breaker.
You can probably pull out the sim card that calls home. Plenty of guides out there too
Chrysler products use a hub to control RF. It’s a whole module that cannot be removed as it will throw the rest of the computers in the car network haywire. If u unplug it the vehicle will no longer start (ask how I know) They really don’t want u to hide your location!
Wrap the antenna with copper mesh.
That actually might work… It won’t recognize they key fob commands (lock and panic buttons etc), the tpms will no longer read, and you would have to treat the key like it has a dead battery touching it to the push button, but short of those 3 features not working in theory this is a sound solution!
I’d think most of the modern cars use eSim, not a physical card
Maybe could disconnect the entire module, I know that I was looking at a guide for Chevy Onstar and possible Tesla
Wasn’t this already well-known? An internal combustion engine is less effective already from the start compared to “modern” fossil energy power production. Even if the energy came 100% from coal, there wouldn’t be too much difference anyways.
The only thing electric cars are worse for, environmentally, is increased tyre wear due to weight. And then the battery production/disposal of course…
And then the battery production/disposal of course…
I’d guess the entire environmental damage of petroleum exploration, extraction, refinement, distribution, and combustion is greater than the entire environmental damage from battery material exploration, extraction, refinement, manufacturing, and eventual battery disposal when talking about a single ICE car vs a single BEV.
All of the ICE vs BEV pollution metrics I have seen to-date include the environmental cost of the battery, but only include ICE tail pipe emissions and exclude the environmental cost of everything needed to bring petroleum to market.
Even if the energy came from 100% black coal, EVs still have less emissions than ICE
Do you have a source? Last I read the only time ICE beat EV in emissions was when electric came from coal fired plants.
Last I read the only time ICE beat EV in emissions was when electric came from coal fired plants.
I’d be interested in your source on that as it contradicts my understanding.
For the ICE vehicle did your source include all of the environmental costs associated with producing the gasoline or did it just consider the tailpipe emissions. Or worse, did it include all the Coal costs as a environmental burden on the EV, but exclude all of the petroleum value chain environmental burden (besides the tailipe emissions)?
So I did a brief search, and while I didn’t dig enough to find a coal fired only plant I found this study that calculated well -to - wheel (includes everything from pulling petrol from the ground to burning it off in the engine) emissions for gas, diesel, and electric. What this shows is that for a clean grid BEV are around 36% in Netherlands where there is hefty use of renewable energy, and as low as 21% in Saudi Arabia where electric is produced largely with petroleum products. Gas ice cars are around 18%, making BEV better by a few points. I can’t help but think if your specific elec plant is only coal fired that it would be a worse efficiency but alas id have to dig more to find a study on that. Interestingly, diesel ICE is around 25% which I did expect a higher number than gasoline but not by that much. Diesel is simply very energy dense. So tl;dr BEV are better in about every case. I can only imagine efficiency if using strictly renewables would be even greater than 36%! Here is study referenced in case interested - https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0967070X2600051X
About 30% less.
Goes to show how inefficient an engine is that runs on explosions. A gear shifter is a necessity just to keep it running at optimum rotation, otherwise it would be even less efficient.
Gas engines don’t run on explosions. They run on burn and rapid gas expansion. Explosions are avoided because it ruins motors.
But they are horribly inefficient and 75% of the gas people buy is wasted as heat.
I mean, yes? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KtQ9nt2ZeGM
Bold of them to assume the people concerned about money are the ones buying new cars.
The cost savings, even at $5\gallon don’t make up for the payments, much less taxes and insurance. But the old truck needed $10000 in repairs to stay on the road and so I’m stuck anyway no matter what.
Honestly, an old truck is irreplaceable. Find somewhere to keep it and also get a small EV commuter (someday). Depending on where you are, you might even be able to get ultra cheap “classic car” insurance at 25 years for a truck that isn’t driven regularily.
I was doing that for years. Despite $3000 per year in maintenance it still needed 10k to be road worthy, with who knows what next. Since repairing trucks is not my hobby I gave up. I want a truck because sometimes you need one and can’t find one but I don’t have one anyway.
Trucks are still tricky, but new EVs cars are about the same cost as new ICE cars. Used EVs are basically entirely reasonable and in some cases cheaper than used ICE.
Nothing new is going to beat a paid off car for affordability, but that’s a pretty apple to oranges comparison no matter how you slice it.
You have higher taxes for electric cars? It’s the other way around here.
We have higher taxes for newer cars. If your car is more than 10 years old, your taxes go way down. When I replace my truck because parts were rusting off, taxes went up because the vehicle is newer.
depends on the state/locality in the US. Since we pay for road maintenance with tax on gas (which EVs don’t pay obviously), some places add an EV tax to make up for it. Problem is it’s usually a flat tax that is higher than most people would pay via gas taxes.
I did the math in my state and the higher taxes are almost exactly what you would be paying gas tests assuming you are average in every possible way, which is unlikely, but what else are they going to do when they don’t track mileage?
well yeah, you also have to factor in maintenance and repairs.
OK, want to throw this discussion. The battery cost. Very rough say battery last 100k miles and cost 10k to replace it. Then for the ICE car at 20 mpg that means battery cost equiv about $2 per gallon? (If battery cost half then it will be $1)
Right now charging time is most burden that I am not toward ev. I know this is become better but the battery cost is another factor which I am not sure.
They last at least 200K and prices have been dropping.
The thing most people miss is that the lifespan rating on most batteries isn’t the time until it’s completely dead and useless. At 10yrs/100,000mi the battery is usually rated to retain at least 80% of the original capacity. Most testing I’ve seen shows ~85%+ remaining after that. (So long as it’s not an air cooled battery like early Nissan leaf)
Batteries last more than 100k miles; if they didn’t no one would buy an EV.
Others already addressed battery cost, so I will address charging time:
For modern EVs, charging time is basically a non-issue outside of longer road trips. Most EV owners utilize a slower (level 1 or level 2) charging station at home, which allows them to charge the car while they are at home/sleeping. EV owners can also use charging stations near/at their destination to charge while they are doing other things anyway. And assuming your daily commute isn’t like 100 miles/160 km, you really don’t need to stop at charging stations at all besides the one at home, which is cheaper. Obviously this does not apply if you rent a house or live in an apartment, etc.
Even road trips aren’t so bad assuming the car has an 800 volt battery pack instead of a 400 volt (higher voltage at same current = more power to charge and faster charge time). It also helps a lot if you only charge to 80 percent instead of 100 because that last 20 percent almost doubles your charge time and is harder on the battery. A lot of new EV owners don’t understand this and get frustrated when they are sitting there for 40 minutes getting almost no additional range compared to waiting for 20 minutes.
I don’t even have a charging station, I just plug that thing straight to the wall. I guess that’s a level 1?
Yes it is. Out of curiosity, how many miles of range do you tend to get charging overnight? I’ve read that it’s about 20 miles per 12 hours, which for me would not be enough to cover my commute.
1.5 kw per hour, or 30kw overnight. That’s about half charge of most battery packs.
That’s some Alaska winter night with 20 hours!
When I plug it in, it says it’s charging at 2.4KW, which I fuzzily convert to something like 7 or 8km per hour of charging. Note that this is on 220v on its own circuit.
The circuit could fit a full fat charging station, but I haven’t really gotten to it cause it works fine as is for my use.
According to the manufacturer, my battery should last 300k to 500k miles.
