People who aren’t honest about what it means to not be vegan won’t last and in most cases won’t change. If it’s only about denying themselves so they can become a better person, like some ascetic then they will fall back into their genocidal ways. If they’re scared about what others think of them they won’t last. Vegans are the safest group of people to make fun of. I know what made me go vegan and it was people not dancing around the fact that these animals that are slaughtered on a conveyor belt had siblings, at least a mom, probably friends who loved them. That me continuing with what I was doing was monstrous.
The people trying to be nice about it I could just ignore. “Agree to disagree” or whatever.
The approach of being confronted by your “murderous” ways worked for you
That same approach won’t work for others. It may work for some, but if 20% of people see what you’re saying, and how you’re saying it, and agree - then you have finally got 20% of people to consider veganism.
The other 80% are reading what you write with a feeling that its over the top and emotive language that doesn’t resonate with them, and only turns them more against the idea of veganism.
Of course, the %s I came up with are made up, just for example - and for the sake of argument I would like you to know that I completely agree with veganism, and agree that what we do to animals is abhorrent and should absolutely change in every aspect.
With that in mind, your approach comes from a place of hatred and negativity and pushes fear and anger. Sure, people such as yourself may be swayed by that approach, but that very same approach is what stops a large number of people taking veganism seriously.
I completely agree with veganism, and agree that what we do to animals is abhorrent and should absolutely change in every aspect.
But I take it you are still part of the literal orphan killing machine? Why should I take your opinions on how to get others to see the evil they’re a part of seriously when it seems it stalled with you on a mere hypothetical level? It doesn’t flatter me that you “agree” with me, if your lifestyle still requires murder or enslavement we are not on the same side. So if your way of convincing others would have others “agree” with me on a theoretical level but not practically, then I’m gonna steer well clear of it.
This is gonna sound really harsh but you’re essentially like a liberal zionist that thinks what they are doing is horrible but continues to live on stolen land.
Yes, based on your phrasing “i agree with veganism”, i read it is an implied “even though I am not vegan”. Hence the first sentence in my reply being a question and implicitly conditioning the rest of what I wrote under that assumption. But I take it then you actually are vegan? In the “minimizing harm to sentient life” sense?
I am relatively recently vegan, been a few months.
But that is not important, nor relevant to this conversation really. Whether vegan or not, my point about the aggression used in trying to “convert” people to veganism not being the best idea, still stands.
No it makes a huge difference if someone who is vegan makes a point about how to talk to non-vegans, because non-vegans keep bringing up these “civility” arguments to silence voices. The “liberals peace” where the violence required to sustain their lifestyle should remain hidden and the problem are people breaking convention by pointing it out.
with regards to my hostility, i believe honest communication is important and that includes emotions. And someone talking about how they don’t eat their flesh but still can’t do without killing their young is upsetting to me. That is someone putting their cheeseburger treats above another beings life, thats angering.
I absolutely understand the anger and frustration. Its like talking to a brick wall, sometimes.
Sometimes theres also “trick questions” coming from the other side…
“What if you were bit by a snake? Would you take the antivenom even though its made from snakes?” for example.
People who “hate” vegans aren’t going to change their ways. The more they hear it, the more they laugh and dig in their heels.
Others, though, deserve a bit of a better chance.
You can say “That was a cow, once. Someone killed it, most likely after tazing it a bunch of times to get it into the corrals, and then if it was " lucky” it died “quickly” with a bolt through its head. If it was unlucky, it laid suffering while the next ones in line watched what was waiting for them ahead."
OR
you can say “You’re one of those fucking carnist pricks who turns a blind eye to murder. You think raping cows is ok as long as you get your little cheese treat? You think hanging pigs upside down by the feet and slicing their necks is worth your bacon breakfast? You think blending baby chicks in a macerator is fine as long as you get your eggs?”
etc etc…
One is designed to put down the person you’re trying to “convert”, the other is trying to show them whats happening that they’re blind to.
I, for one, if I’m being put down, am not about to side with someone even if I know they’re right. It sucks, but its human nature.
I know your way of putting your points across in this thread isn’t great, because not too long ago I WAS on the other side of the argument. Check my post history, though - I knew/know its wrong to eat meat. I know veganism is the better way of life. I know factory farming is fucked. I know all this.
I also know that when people spoke to me like you do, I failed to take their message on board because they were attacking me, rather than trying to help me.
People like my sister, who has been vegan most of her life, has always been there to answer questions when I had them, and to show me things when I’ve needed to see things… who has had the patience not to rush me into a life-change (Indoctrination into eating meat from a baby isn’t super easy to just change for some people)
People like HER helped me come to the right decision.
It took years, but it happened.
Your approach, I fear, takes years and has the side effect of stopping people even considering veganism when they feel attacked.
I get what you’re saying, the gentle approach is what I took with my wife and what I say to others I know well. With whom I have a rapport, because I can communicate that this is an important issue, that being blase about murder is not ok, in another way.
There is also a distinction to be made with people being ignorant, i. e. those that don’t know that chicks get murdered for egg production or that cows need to be pregnant for milk production (they don’t just do that ) and those that do know about it and still say “but I just couldn’t without my cheese”. The latter is what the person I responded to was saying, “yeah sure I’ll reduce my meat consumption but I still need my cheese”, consciously, wilfully and maliciously prioritizing their treat (because that’s what a cheeseburger is) over the life of cows and their young.
This is the problem with vegetarians. They will absolutely indulge in the violence as long as it’s hidden away. “Oh no not without my choccies, my cheeses, my fried eggs”. While pretending they are against it. It’s maddening and it deserves to be called out.
My intention wasn’t just to insult them for insultings sake, but to call out and draw attention to their concious decision to prioritize their treat over the lifes of the cows needed to produce it. “Treatbrained” is insulting yeah, but it’s also an apt description. Because I don’t think there is a “nice” way of telling someone their behaviour is gross and repugnant. But it’s still important to do it.
For me the comparison is always “what if it were a humans and not animals” and in that case I’d want to throttle the person that prioritizes cheese over moms. The fact that I don’t have that urge speaks more to my speciesism than anything else. Not to say that this would be an appropriate reaction given the need for systemic change, but just to get a glimpse at the kind of violence we are talking about here.
This is why I disagree with vegans who don’t want to watch footage from slaughterhouses and stuff like that. “Oh, I already know what happens there, so I don’t need to traumatize myself.” Okay, I’m not going to force anybody to watch anything, but I will say one thing. It’s really hard to go back to reading meat after that. It makes it much more visceral, in a very literal sense.
It reminds me of that saying “To know and not to do is not to know”. Once you know, there really isn’t any going back.
People who aren’t honest about what it means to not be vegan won’t last and in most cases won’t change. If it’s only about denying themselves so they can become a better person, like some ascetic then they will fall back into their genocidal ways. If they’re scared about what others think of them they won’t last. Vegans are the safest group of people to make fun of. I know what made me go vegan and it was people not dancing around the fact that these animals that are slaughtered on a conveyor belt had siblings, at least a mom, probably friends who loved them. That me continuing with what I was doing was monstrous.
The people trying to be nice about it I could just ignore. “Agree to disagree” or whatever.
That worked for you
The approach of being confronted by your “murderous” ways worked for you
That same approach won’t work for others. It may work for some, but if 20% of people see what you’re saying, and how you’re saying it, and agree - then you have finally got 20% of people to consider veganism. The other 80% are reading what you write with a feeling that its over the top and emotive language that doesn’t resonate with them, and only turns them more against the idea of veganism.
Of course, the %s I came up with are made up, just for example - and for the sake of argument I would like you to know that I completely agree with veganism, and agree that what we do to animals is abhorrent and should absolutely change in every aspect. With that in mind, your approach comes from a place of hatred and negativity and pushes fear and anger. Sure, people such as yourself may be swayed by that approach, but that very same approach is what stops a large number of people taking veganism seriously.
But I take it you are still part of the literal orphan killing machine? Why should I take your opinions on how to get others to see the evil they’re a part of seriously when it seems it stalled with you on a mere hypothetical level? It doesn’t flatter me that you “agree” with me, if your lifestyle still requires murder or enslavement we are not on the same side. So if your way of convincing others would have others “agree” with me on a theoretical level but not practically, then I’m gonna steer well clear of it.
This is gonna sound really harsh but you’re essentially like a liberal zionist that thinks what they are doing is horrible but continues to live on stolen land.
You’re assuming I’m not vegan. Just because I’m not being militant and vicious in my views and beliefs doesn’t mean I believe any different to you.
Theres just a better way of going about it. Your tone is not helping your cause.
Yes, based on your phrasing “i agree with veganism”, i read it is an implied “even though I am not vegan”. Hence the first sentence in my reply being a question and implicitly conditioning the rest of what I wrote under that assumption. But I take it then you actually are vegan? In the “minimizing harm to sentient life” sense?
I am relatively recently vegan, been a few months. But that is not important, nor relevant to this conversation really. Whether vegan or not, my point about the aggression used in trying to “convert” people to veganism not being the best idea, still stands.
No it makes a huge difference if someone who is vegan makes a point about how to talk to non-vegans, because non-vegans keep bringing up these “civility” arguments to silence voices. The “liberals peace” where the violence required to sustain their lifestyle should remain hidden and the problem are people breaking convention by pointing it out.
with regards to my hostility, i believe honest communication is important and that includes emotions. And someone talking about how they don’t eat their flesh but still can’t do without killing their young is upsetting to me. That is someone putting their cheeseburger treats above another beings life, thats angering.
I absolutely understand the anger and frustration. Its like talking to a brick wall, sometimes. Sometimes theres also “trick questions” coming from the other side… “What if you were bit by a snake? Would you take the antivenom even though its made from snakes?” for example.
People who “hate” vegans aren’t going to change their ways. The more they hear it, the more they laugh and dig in their heels.
Others, though, deserve a bit of a better chance.
You can say “That was a cow, once. Someone killed it, most likely after tazing it a bunch of times to get it into the corrals, and then if it was " lucky” it died “quickly” with a bolt through its head. If it was unlucky, it laid suffering while the next ones in line watched what was waiting for them ahead."
OR
you can say “You’re one of those fucking carnist pricks who turns a blind eye to murder. You think raping cows is ok as long as you get your little cheese treat? You think hanging pigs upside down by the feet and slicing their necks is worth your bacon breakfast? You think blending baby chicks in a macerator is fine as long as you get your eggs?” etc etc…
One is designed to put down the person you’re trying to “convert”, the other is trying to show them whats happening that they’re blind to.
I, for one, if I’m being put down, am not about to side with someone even if I know they’re right. It sucks, but its human nature. I know your way of putting your points across in this thread isn’t great, because not too long ago I WAS on the other side of the argument. Check my post history, though - I knew/know its wrong to eat meat. I know veganism is the better way of life. I know factory farming is fucked. I know all this.
I also know that when people spoke to me like you do, I failed to take their message on board because they were attacking me, rather than trying to help me.
People like my sister, who has been vegan most of her life, has always been there to answer questions when I had them, and to show me things when I’ve needed to see things… who has had the patience not to rush me into a life-change (Indoctrination into eating meat from a baby isn’t super easy to just change for some people) People like HER helped me come to the right decision.
It took years, but it happened.
Your approach, I fear, takes years and has the side effect of stopping people even considering veganism when they feel attacked.
I get what you’re saying, the gentle approach is what I took with my wife and what I say to others I know well. With whom I have a rapport, because I can communicate that this is an important issue, that being blase about murder is not ok, in another way.
There is also a distinction to be made with people being ignorant, i. e. those that don’t know that chicks get murdered for egg production or that cows need to be pregnant for milk production (they don’t just do that
) and those that do know about it and still say “but I just couldn’t without my cheese”. The latter is what the person I responded to was saying, “yeah sure I’ll reduce my meat consumption but I still need my cheese”, consciously, wilfully and maliciously prioritizing their treat (because that’s what a cheeseburger is) over the life of cows and their young.
This is the problem with vegetarians. They will absolutely indulge in the violence as long as it’s hidden away. “Oh no not without my choccies, my cheeses, my fried eggs”. While pretending they are against it. It’s maddening and it deserves to be called out.
My intention wasn’t just to insult them for insultings sake, but to call out and draw attention to their concious decision to prioritize their treat over the lifes of the cows needed to produce it. “Treatbrained” is insulting yeah, but it’s also an apt description. Because I don’t think there is a “nice” way of telling someone their behaviour is gross and repugnant. But it’s still important to do it.
For me the comparison is always “what if it were a humans and not animals” and in that case I’d want to throttle the person that prioritizes cheese over moms. The fact that I don’t have that urge speaks more to my speciesism than anything else. Not to say that this would be an appropriate reaction given the need for systemic change, but just to get a glimpse at the kind of violence we are talking about here.
This is why I disagree with vegans who don’t want to watch footage from slaughterhouses and stuff like that. “Oh, I already know what happens there, so I don’t need to traumatize myself.” Okay, I’m not going to force anybody to watch anything, but I will say one thing. It’s really hard to go back to reading meat after that. It makes it much more visceral, in a very literal sense.
It reminds me of that saying “To know and not to do is not to know”. Once you know, there really isn’t any going back.