I’m only interested when the vehicles are simple and affordable and the charging stations are fast and ubiquitous.
Which will be 20 years.
People seem to forget gas cars took 50+ years to become widely adopted. They were not really accessible to the middle and lower classes until after WW2
I’m not entirely against EVs but they’re simply not ready for me yet. I think an actual usuable 300 mile range would be enough for me which we’re probably approaching quite soon. The biggest problem though is the cost and complete lack of nice estate car EVs. £10k is usually my budget for a new car and I very rarely pay that.
The price is definitely the bigger issue for EVs, but even then they definitely need to either roughly double range or halve charging time from 20% to 80%. Right now, they don’t quite cover enough of users needs, especially at the price. I need a vehicle that covers 90-95% of my use cases, and EVs are sitting closer to 80%.
The problem is that modern cars are shitty. It doesn’t matter if it’s a petrol, diesel or electric car. If I can’t repair it myself, it’s a poor quality car. The fact that you might need specialized paywalled software to remove error codes after fixing the car is just awful.
Most people I’ve spoken with that claim that they don’t like electric cars eventually agree that they don’t like modern cars. Mainly due to how closed everything is.
Yeah, vendo lock in is what has stopped me from purchasing a BYD seal
Literally every single person that I talked to that seriously tried an EV (like, as a daily driver for some time, not just the rental you had for a day) said they were never going back to combustion engines.
I get the sentiment, and I’ve said it before but when my current daily goes, an EV of some sort will likely take its place. Even given the poor charging infrastructure where I am, mathematically it is clearly the sensible choice.
But for the things I can’t measure with a calculator, I’ll have at least one ICE vehicle for a long as it’s feasible to do so. There are boxes that EVs - and I’ve spent plenty of time with them - simply don’t tick for me.
I don’t have an EV, but I can imagine it would be nice to not have to go to the gas station once a week.
Yeah, I drive an EV and will never go back to gas.
I mean maybe if I had a project car or something but even then my thoughts drift towards how I might swap an electric drivetrain…
What is your view on hybrids?
We need to separate the feeling of driving from practicality. EVs are pleasant to drive for sure. Having to plan your trips around charging is annoying, there isn’t really much progress there.
The only reason I want a car is to do spontaneous trips to less populated areas. I already have range anxiety, I top up as soon as I’m below 1/3 of the tank. Batteries make it worse.Sorry, but can’t relate. Had that feeling for the first few trips until the first one where we drove so much more efficiently that we deliberately did not take the first planned stop. I rode shotgun, so I then looked for alternative spots to charge, just to see that there are so many in my country that having planned those routes in the first place literally doesn’t make sense.
Since then we just drive. Once we get below 50 km remaining range, we check some map app for the next charger. Like we did with gas stations.
Also, coming from practicality… it’s just so nice not to have to use gas stations. Like, you usually just always start whatever you do with a full battery because you just charge it overnight. No gas stops on my commute is quite practical.
I drive an EV, and planning around driving habits is simply not a thing for me. It’s hooked up to its 230v charger and will be ready at 100% charge every morning. I drive the 50km to work and back for about 25% worth of charge. There’s a few public chargers on the way to work and almost anywhere I care to go. Range anxiety is waaay overblown in my opinion.
If you can charge at home yeah it’s fine, otherwise you’re fucked. I had an ID3 and could only charge at work or at an expensive charger at a gas station.
I had to plan charging at work otherwise I couldn’t decide on a whim to go see my mum on Sundays. The itinerary took around 60% of the battery in summer and only one charging station in between, which is not working half the time. So either I take 30-60 minutes before going to charge (hoping the charger is working and available), or I can throw the dice and hope the chargers on the way works this time.
It’s not so much range anxiety than the infrastructure around me not being enough.
Edit: and by charge at work, I mean go to the nearest charger near the office and remember to get the car back once full to avoid overtime fees. Work took 3 years to install chargers on the office parking.
Oh no, I have to stop for 15 minutes after four hours of driving, every time I drive more than four hours at a time.
I have anxiety right now just thinking about the next time I have to spend that 15 minutes in a couple months from now.
Do you think I can save up all the times I don’t stop for gas between now and then and use that as some sort of credit towards that time?
I can’t share that feeling. My country has a law that every parking garage and parking lot must have chargers and often a fast charger is installed. I really have to go a few countries over to a place that’s not full of chargers.
I disagree. I have had an EV since 2018 and I can honestly say I never want another one. My next vehicles going forward will be ICE 100%.
I’m also going to make sure that they are older and have little to no infotainment / internet connected systems.
A sub year 2000. Maybe a nice Accord or Jeep.
I’m over this dystopian nightmare.
It sounds like your problems aren’t with EVs. It sounds like your problems are with any modern car.
Both. But I rather fill up anytime for 2 mins than having to plan out my charging and waiting 45 mins. This is my biggest gripe.
The spyware, while a big concern, is secondary to my refueling schedule.
What were you driving, a 2013 Bolt?
EVs charge at 200kW now, not 40.
You’re driving a pretty old EV at this point. EV charging speeds have improved significantly. Also there are PHEVs now, why not split the difference?
Where do you drive that 45 minute fillups mid-travel are necessary? Surely that is rare at least.
Is it the drive train you have a problem with or the software? Because I think you just dislike new cars, not electric cars. In which case keep an eye out for the Slate EV
Nice, first I’ve heard of Slate. Privacy-focused EV and looks like they offer customizable trucks and SUVs. Hope this takes off!
If Slate makes a reliable vehicle from a new model from a new company, it will be an industry first.
It’s the waiting 45 minutes to charge that I hate.
There are newer models that can charge to 80% in 15 min. It will probably take a while until fast chargers are widespread, but this is where things are going.
That won’t stop battery degradation.
Yeah, it won’t.
ICE engines also need oil changes, transmission fluid, headgaskets,belts.
I agree that modern “it’ll spy on you” car software sucks ass. The actual battery and charging tech is way way better than 2018 though. No one has to stop for 45 minutes.
Oh look, a shell representative
don’t you just charge overnight most of the time?
that’s what most poeple do
Yea, would be nice if I had my own house to add a charger to. I rent and have to use communal chargers.
Ok so you bought an electric car knowing full well you were not able to charge it at will at night (and I assume nowhere in your regular daily routine, like at work) and now complain about that?
I’m from Canada and I hate I bought a giant bikini collection but bikini season is only 1 month here… therefore, bikinis suck!
Have you asked your work to add chargers?
Condos generally won’t let you have chargers. HOA hate everyone.
Not everyone can afford the boomer American dream of detached housing.
then why buy an electric car when OP knew full well charging was going to be troublesome?
If you can find a Saab from before GM bought em that’s still in good condition… *chef’s kiss* perfection.
Saab reminds me of an old 80s movie named ‘Moving’ with Richard Pryor.
Is that the one where he goes crazy and like hijacks the moving truck with his stuff in it?
They should stop with that touch screen crap, always connected to the internet spyware bullshit, but they are putting that everywhere now not just EVs.
We will soon be in the siutuation where if you want an old car without that crap you can’t even go into the larger eu cities anymore, because the engine will be too polluting.
There really is a market for cars without that crap. As long as it brings me and my family to destination safely I don’t care how it is propelled.
My first vehicle ever was a 1987 Suzuki Samurai JX and I regret losing it to this day. I have not been able to match it with any subsequent vehicle I’ve owned.
I liked 1 of the electric bikes I tried, and Ill admit its probably objectively better in terms of practicality, but I kinda prefer gas.
For what exactly
seeing as it’s about bikes, probably the noise
For riding, perfectly linear torque without a clutch is kind of boring. Charging was kinda complicated due to 2 competing charging networks and poor infrastructure, Also I’m unclear on how to get one fixed, whereas anyone in this country can fix a honda.
Fortunately they need fixing way less often
Maintenance is another huge benefit of EVs.
Reduced maintenance, yes. But I haven’t (yet) found an independent mechanic that can work on my Bolt, so the little maintenance I need has to be done at the dealer.
I still took that deal, but it has room for improvement.
Ah yes, I do remember preferring the electrical horse back then.
What does this headline even mean?
Are electric horses better than gas powered horses or what?
Yeah, it’s phrased in a weird way.
He is saying that when cars were becoming popular, lots of people insisted that horses were better. Over time, basically everyone realized that cars are better.
Now electric cars are becoming popular, although lots of people insists that ICE cars are better.
He is saying that over time, people against electric cars will change their mind, just like the horse-people did.
Henry Ford once said somethimg like: if i had asked people what theh wanted, they would’ve said faster horses.
Electric engines are better than horses
Electric horses are better than engines
Even the Empire knows that!
It’s a simple analogy. Cars are horses but cars are also cars. And of course cars are better than horses.
Does that include hybrids? Been rocking my Toyota Hybrid and I don’t have issues with it aside from the dashboard screen being small and feeling outdated. Even then, I only use it to connect my phone to Bluetooth audio. Don’t even use Android Auto.
Yes. Even though Toyota hybrids are really efficient and low maintenance, you just plug in when you get home. No fuel. No oil changes. It’s like a toaster; it just works. My EV drivetrain has something like 5 moving parts.
After 150,000km or so you need to have the coolant and gearcase fluids changed.
As long as manufacturers are building the electronic parts to last a reasonable time (and that I expect to change to serve the dealer networks) it’s much less work owning an EV.
Eventually the battery has to be replaced, and that can be a big expense. But yeah, over the life of the car, the maintenance should be lower, and as the technology improves the costs will hopefully come down.
I work from home so my 13-year-old GTI hasn’t crossed 60k miles yet. If/when I ever replace it, it will likely be with an EV. We also have a RAV4 hybrid, and we’re just now feeling the pain of the higher gas prices.
The battery is a spectre I’m not looking forward to.
The GTI is a car; the RAV4 is an appliance. Hopefully you can keep it around for a while. The imperfections of mechanical, combustion driven cars are feedback that make the driving experience pleasurable. But with the level of traffic in my neighborhood and fuel prices, I just want to get there cheaply most days.
everyone has known evs are just better for some time now. the real obstacle to switching isn’t the charging network or cost. it’s oil and gas lobbying and oil and gas subsidies.
stop all oil subsidies today. stop the big oil lobbyists. then let’s see how fast the switch happens
Three times I read “cats are like horses”, and was wracking my brain trying to figure out the analogy…
Not at all a very convinient opinion for him as he maneuvered his company into a dead end doubling down on the combustion engine.
The Car & The Horse:
A Short Tale a Djin Once Told Me (VOL I)
Once upon a time there was a human with a horse. It wasn’t a poor human, but it was a simple one.
One day whilst plowing fields, forcing a horse to plow a course…(“Jim”, we shall name horse) thae human stumbled upon a brass lamp, ornately carved & brilliant to witness.
As the human was furiously rubbing the lamp with it’s sleeve, Jim noticed some text on the bottom of the lamp and imagined what it might sound like…
“Neigh…”, the human heard, curiously
BUT this isn’t a tale of humans. It is a tale of horses and electric cars. The last of my tales dwarfed the original story, thus causing OP to delete the entire post. However, that story isn’t gone forever. I still have it. This is simply a different one.
And this is a story about a horse.
FOR MORE HORSE STORY, INSERT COIN
FOR MORE HORSE STORY, INSERT COIN
Oh great, the coin judt scratched my phone screen. You owe me a horse story!
The scratch is simply a metaphor.
This is a horse story…
…A found letter story, in the form of a Ken Burns documentary!!
POOF
"Dear Bobert,
I have stumbled upon a majestic lamp & read the text of lamp. A genie… neigh…a Djin then appeared. When asked for my first I gurfawed “Apple”, but sadly it was an apple of knowledge. Damned Djin. Now I am on my second wish, which I have decided is “Replace horse with car”.
Please, if this is a bad wish, alert me within the next few minutes. I realize now that it is too late, as you have already received this and I have made my wish.
Alas, I lovingly await your sheep words…
Car love you, Jim The Horse The Car"
deleted by creator
We know they’re better, we just can’t afford them.
Better analogies would be automatic vs manual transmission, power steering vs not, and CarPlay/Google Maps vs a paper atlas.
I think a lot of people know you have to pay to charge and that charging can take nearly an hour and they don’t see the point. I didn’t know what it cost to charge an EV before. I saw an article yesterday where someone charged, if I read it correctly, 89% of their capacity (they were down to 11%), for $13.99. Get a petrol driver to figure out their capacity, multiply it by 0.89, then multiply that by the cost of petrol in their area. Then convert to US Dollars and see which is cheaper. Guarantee it’s electric.
Of course, that leaves another variable. Batteries, being consumable devices. How much is the EV’s battery to replace (including labour) and how long does the OEM part last?
This is a new kind of propaganda. Most of that is reasonable except 15 minutes is not “close to an hour” to charge.
Your hour might apply to one model that’s more than a decade old. It has never taken a Tesla that long to charge, and it doesn’t take that long for any other modern model to charge.
If you’re looking at fast charging (1 hour or less) on a regular basis, you’re doing it wrong. The vast majority of charging should happen while the car is already parked, using level 2 AC charging. This means when you park at home, with, etc, you take just a few seconds to connect a charger, then walk away. When you come back ~8 hours later, you take a few seconds to unplug before leaving. This approach, believe it or not, means I spend less time dealing with fuel than if I had a gas car.
Plus, AC charging is much cheaper, and more reliable. These chargers are very simple devices, that just do a bit of monitoring and negotiation. They deliver raw 240v to the car, which has its own AC-DC converter.
DC fast charging is much more expensive - $14 for a full DC charge is very unlikely. That’s because DCFC stations are very big, complex installations. As such, they also have parts fail on a regular basis. DCFC is often more expensive than gas, but again should only be used on rare occasions.
As for batteries failing, it’s about as often as a gas engine fails. IOW, it’s extremely rare until the car is EOL anyway. Battery degradation is typically 85-90% health remaining at 100k miles.
Many EV models have just started hitting price parity with comparable combustion cars with the same range
And batteries are STILL getting cheaper
That’s on top of studies showing EV batteries are generally surviving longer than projected (often thanks to modern battery management systems reducing wear)
That’s awesome. We’ve needed increases and advancements in battery since smartphones got popular almost 20 years ago (thanks iPhone) but EVs seem a bit more important, especially since that EV is also likely charging your phones while you drive.
And yes, I’ve heard that over time, battery prices and EV prices have come down.
The next person to reply to me mentions Americans and, more relating to your comment than theirs, I was just reading about how despite how Tesla had to push back against the gas-powered car industry to get a foothold, now that they’re established, they’re doing the same thing to keep competition out, namely China’s BYD, which is “threatening” to undercut everybody, so they don’t want that. If China can sell an EV for $10k less than the Americans are selling theirs (and Elon Musk, who isn’t exactly American, not that it’s about nationality per se), then Americans can certainly sell theirs for less and get more people buying. Apparently at this point it’s cheaper and more profitable to fight competition than it would be to allow competition in the industry. To be clear though, it’s not just Tesla and BYD, it’s Tesla and all the other automakers fixing the price and BYD is saying you can get an EV for much less than that. Fortunately, more and more people are listening to BYD. Cheaper EVs is what we need to get more people driving them.
Don’t forget the infrastructure! The average American is within 5 minutes of a gas station, but charging stations are very few and far between (you can’t even cross certain states with one charge because of the gap).
What state(s) would that be? I just checked PlugShare, and it shows plenty of fast charging stations even through rural states like Kansas and Montana.
I guess Alaska would count, but even that’s pretty well covered from Anchorage to Fairbanks
Charging stations are getting more and more common.
I was reading that a lot of gas stations are transitioning from “stop and go” (or “stop and convenience store and go”) to a more “rest area” format. As in, there will be things to do there while your EV charges. Brands like Sheetz and Wawa and Buc’ees that already provide food (and, by some accounts, it’s better than your typical “gas station” fare) are looking into other things to keep you hanging around. Before, gas stations wanted you to leave ASAP so you free up a pump for another customer. But now if you have to take an hour to charge, they want to keep you fed and entertained so your time is not wasted. (But, by the same token, they’re going to want you to vacate your charging port once you’re done, so another customer can charge. Imagine waiting not only to charge, but for a charger to open up.)
Hopefully it improves as time goes on - from what I can gather EVs in the US mainly make sense if you’re a homeowner or live in an apartment that has a charging station on site.
(I wouldn’t be able to own one and reliably maintain charge right now as a college student, for example)
To own an EV, you basically have to be able to AC charge at home or at work. The good news is that all of the new 5-over-1 apartment buildings (at left around here) are being built with a handful of chargers right from the beginning. As they become more popular, it’s pretty easy to add more.
But you can also get creative. My local chain grocery store has level 2 chargers in the parking lot. These don’t make much sense to use while shopping, but they’re convenient enough for all of the older apartments nearby. Most universities have AC chargers, but it’s probably not convenient and you’d have to move your car the next day.
The used market is not there right know. Those EVs last longer and have had a lot of progress in the last years. That means that you do not have that many cheap used offerings as you have with petrol cars.
Batteries, being consumable devices. How much is the EV’s battery to replace (including labour) and how long does the OEM part last?
People really need to think of petrol motors as consumption parts. Your engine will need a lot of mainenance and it also has a lifespan. That lifespan is shorter than that of a battery
People can keep ICE engines running a very long time.
You might have to replace the plugs, timing belt, pistons, valves, rods, gasket, camshaft, crankshaft, sleeves, and block, but the engine? It can last a really long time.
The gas car goes a lot further on 1 tank.
Electrics use .25-.35 KWh per mile, if you’re paying 24 cents per kwh, thats 6-10 cents per mile.
A car that gets 35 mpg and pays 4.2USD/gallon spends 12 cents per mile on fuel.
Clarification: in many areas, cats are expected to last so many miles or kilometers per tank/charge so you can’t be stranded between refills/charges. I think it’s 300 miles but I’m not sure. Less efficient vehicles, thus, need larger gas tanks or batteries.
So while, in theory, some cars will be able to get more miles before they die from running out of gas or charge, the consumer can typically expect a reasonable minimum.
Also, call it dystopian, but a great option would be to charge at work. Charge slowly over the course of a shift. They take it right out of your check. Pre-tax if you’re lucky (I’ve heard government jobs can do this? Not sure about private sector). Then you just don’t worry about it because it happens when you’re not there. You just always have charge. Charge a little every day or all at once on Friday, either way. As opposed to charging at home, I mean, for people who can’t install the charger at home for whatever reason.
Charging at home or work would be great. From my perspective, the biggest obstacle to EV ownership is road trips. I just did a trip last week that was 2000 miles round-trip. Having to stop multiple times a day for charging would be a real challenge, not just for current lack of infrastructure, but also the time spent charging. Fuel stations are everywhere and I can have a full tank in <5 minutes. Until EV charging approaches these numbers, I don’t see myself owning an EV. Although I guess there is the option to rent a traditional vehicle for those periods, I usually make multiple 1000+ mile trips per year, so those costs aren’t insubstantial.
It just takes a bit of extra planning. Chart out your desired route with ABRP or such, and hit the road? I’m in Sweden, so we may have a bit more charging infrastructure than your country, but you might be surprised.
On long roadtrips, I prefer planning that I will charge for like 15 minutes every couple hours, then making sure to get a stretch, eat something small, and get a short walk in. The couple minutes it takes to just fill the tank isn’t sufficient to prevent deep vein thrombosis and other health issues.
Your analogies make no sense either.
I presume the headline is alluding to how eventually people accepted cars are better than horses but then your “better” analogies make no sense.
Auto vs manual, neither is “better”, it depends more on situation and personal preference. I’d take a manual over auto any day personally.
Power steering vs not again depends on application. I’d rather have no power steering in a little sports car and get more positive feedback but would rather power steering on some heavy unwieldly vehicle.
A map vs sat nav bullshit. I’m guessing more people would argue the latter being “better” in this case but there are plenty of people who would rather read a map and know exactly where they are rather than blindly follow shit.
So yeh I really don’t understand what you are driving at with your analogies and don’t think they work for the context unless I’m misunderstanding :)
there are plenty of people who would rather read a map and know exactly where they are rather than blindly follow shit.
Ok Boomer. Following a sat nav is not blindly following. Does your map predict the future? Tell you where construction and traffic is?
No, they make sense, and I thank you for being transparent with your biases. That’s not common online, but it’s a standard I strive for and respect.
The same kind of person who prefers manual transmission would prefer a gas engine. Let’s look at Mustang drivers. Nuff Said. (For those who don’t get it, Google “1969 Mustang Eleanor” and “Mustang EV”. One is a work of art. The other is a crime against automobile style or at least should never have been called Mustang — would have been a great opportunity to revive the Ford Galaxy brand.)
No one cares about the name behind a car. The original mustang was a high volume piece of shit car that only resonated with Boomers.
I agree with most of what you’ve been saying, but I’m going to gently push back on the Mustang EV. I think it’s one of the best looking EVs out there and it would be the one that I would choose (or the Subie EV because I love my Crosstrek). I do agree that it probably should not have been called a Mustang though because it doesn’t really look like one and there’s a whole culture thing behind the Mustang.
I would be thrilled if there was a manual shift EV. I know it doesn’t make sense and I don’t care if it doesn’t really do what combustion engines do, but I loved driving stick. I was sad to give up my old stick, but I went for the car with much higher safety ratings. It doesn’t even have to be real, just give me that feeling of driving manual would be great. And with a proper stick shifter too, not the silly paddle shifters.
EVERYTHING in the universe runs on electricity, even your body. It can be created without polluting the environment. It also doesn’t pollute when used.
EV vehicles also have a lot fewer parts so they are less costly to manufacture and there is less to go wrong.Your body runs on oxidation of hydrocarbons and generates CO2 exhaust, like an ICE engine.
Body runs on electricity? Nope.
I’d love to go back to horses, though.
You can. Henry Ford didn’t exterminate them, he just mass produced an alternative.
I think he is right.
