• SirEDCaLot@lemmy.today
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    7 days ago

    This makes sense. Hear me out.

    1. A CM5 is a device designed to be embedded into other devices. I believe most of their sales come from just that- companies that make other things, and build a CM5 into them rather than design their own control board.

    2. As you go up through the model tiers, the price increases faster than the added price of memory. IE, if the 2gb one is $20, and the difference between a 2gb memory chip and an 8gb memory chip is $10, the 8gb unit isn’t $30 it’s $60. You pay RPi a premium for the high end products.

    3. Desoldering RAM off a production PCB is something no hobbyist is going to bother with. BUT, a company buying 10,000 of these to build into their product MIGHT find it cost effective to setup a production line to do so. And they could probably resell the 2gb chips.

    Point being- while I don’t like this, and I don’t like the ideas it represents, I also understand why they are doing it. It’s not about us, the hobbyists. It’s about the manufacturers that build compute modules into their products.

    • carrylex@lemmy.world
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      7 days ago

      Desoldering RAM off a production PCB is something no hobbyist is going to bother with

      Ever heard of “repair” when no original spare parts are available?

      • buddascrayon@lemmy.world
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        7 days ago

        According to the article you can still do this. It’s just you can’t replace a 2 GB with an 8 GB because the board will still only recognize 2GB of that chip.

        This is to prevent the resellers from buying 2 GB boards for cheap, replacing them with cheap 8 GB chips, and then reselling them for just under retail of the official 8 GB boards.

        • Omgpwnies@lemmy.world
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          7 days ago

          The article also states that you likely can’t use just any compatible chip, the part number is baked into the board, so you might not even be able to swap out a 2GB SK Hynix with a 2GB Samsung chip

          • WhyJiffie@sh.itjust.works
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            7 days ago

            it does not say part number is baked in. it says parameters are baked in (latencies, frequency), and so chips with a different part number might not work.

      • SirEDCaLot@lemmy.today
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        7 days ago

        In concept nothing. But do you also recognize a legitimate business model of selling multiple products at different price points, spaced out more than the different cost of production?

        And speaking hypothetically with some stupid numbers is it your argument that they should be able to purchase the $20 product, add $10 of parts, and either use it or sell it as the $200 product?

        • Taasz/Woof@lemmy.blahaj.zone
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          7 days ago

          In concept nothing. But do you also recognize a legitimate business model of selling multiple products at different price points, spaced out more than the different cost of production?

          Yes of course, but if the spacing is too much then stuff like this starts to happen.

          is it your argument that they should be able to purchase the $20 product, add $10 of parts, and either use it or sell it as the $200 product?

          Yes, once I buy something it’s mine to do with as I want. Obviously warranty may be void in some cases, but otherwise I own it.

          If the market exists that is willing to buy it as a $200 product then Raspberry Pi should sell them for that price, their costs would be much lower than someone who buys a Pi at retail, buys new RAM chips, spends the time to desolder and solder on the new RAM chips, market their ‘product’, and deal with shipping it. If the knockoff is $200 and the same-spec legitimate Pi with warranty is $200, the knockoff won’t be around for long.

          • SirEDCaLot@lemmy.today
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            5 days ago

            Yes of course, but if the spacing is too much then stuff like this starts to happen.

            agreed

            If the knockoff is $200 and the same-spec legitimate Pi with warranty is $200, the knockoff won’t be around for long.

            Supply and demand aren’t a black and white thing, it’s a sliding scalre.

            More likely the knockoff will be $180 and comes with a knockoff warranty- we make it for $40 incl. parts and labor and sell it for $180, so if it breaks we’ll just send you a new one and we’re still ahead financially.

            What if the knockoff isn’t $180 but is $80? Under that condition who would buy the $200 one? If the thing sucks you could literally buy a spare and still be ahead.

            • Taasz/Woof@lemmy.blahaj.zone
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              5 days ago

              But in this case they are buying new Pis and modifying them, so their costs have to be higher than the official ones. It’s just weird to me that there is any market for that at all.

              • SirEDCaLot@lemmy.today
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                1 day ago

                Their cost is higher than the official one, but they can still undercut the official one and make money. That’s why it works.

                Personally I’m not aware of anyone actually selling these, so this may be a made up issue. Or it might be a case where they were sold on aliexpress or something.

        • Eximius@lemmy.world
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          7 days ago

          The fact that it is economically viable to resolder different chips, is already showing it’s a illegitimate business model, imo…

          Not a product, but a money grab

          • SirEDCaLot@lemmy.today
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            16 hours ago

            So hypothetically.

            Let’s say a raw memory chip, is $2 $4 and $10 for a 4gb, 8gb, and 16gb raw chip.

            Let’s say the RPi Compute module are $50, $70, and $100 for the 4gb, 8gb and 16gb versions. From smallest to largest that’s a $50 price increase for a $8 cost increase.

            Is that an ‘illegitimate’ business model? Honest question I’m curious where you’re at.

            • Eximius@lemmy.world
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              8 hours ago

              I think so, yes. It bases the business on “money milking” by staggering SKUs to maximize profits. “Cheap” one that is mostly useless, just to upsell the others. “Mid” one that is just okay. And “expensive”, that isnt more expensive to make, but looks reasonable here to really milk the money. “Usual” dark patterns these days.

              Per your hypothetical:

              Say there is some r&d budget A, production and logistics costs B, and SKU component costs Ci. Since we’re capitalistic corpo aimed at line go up, there is also D% margins.

              rough math, per unit:
              ((A + B) * sku_1 / N**2 + C + 2) * D = 50
              ((A + B) * sku_2 / N**2 + C + 4) * D = 70
              ((A + B) * sku_3 / N**2 + C + 10) * D = 100
              sku1, sku2, sku3 = number of sku units
              C - cost of all other components
              N = number of units
              D = 100% + margin%
              

              Set D, A, B, C, N and you’ll see how they expect to sell their rpis, not based on “hey this is our proposal”, but based on “target this market, upsell this, and focus on selling this overpriced sku”.

              But maybe they’re not evil, and they don’t want to tell you what to do, just a proposal and expected market. Let’s do a simpler situation. A per-unit equitable margin based business:

              B - per unit logistics, prod costs (they are literally identical in every way except for ram chip) D < 100%, added margin

              (B + C + 2 ) * (1 + A + D) = 50
              (B + C + 4 ) * (1 + A + D) = 70
              (B + C + 10) * (1 + A + D) = 100
              
              Merge B + C for brevity. 1 + A + D = M
              
              BC = 50 / M - 2
              BC = 70 / M - 4
              3) BC = 100 / M - 10
              
              => M = 10, BC = 3
              

              Oi. Margin of 900% (that’s some costly R&D) , but 3) is literally then broken. And then math does not math, with abstract bad numbers.

              Let’s try more realistic numbers:

              1G - 53
              2G - 87
              4G - 127
              8G - 194
              16G - 334
              
              BC = 53 / M - R1
              BC = 87 / M - R2
              BC = 127 / M - R3
              BC = 194 / M - R4
              BC = 334 / M - R5
              

              Now some data is missing for ram chip prices, or costs of components, but let’s just assume indeed BC + R1 = 53/M. I.e. they don’t purposely lose money on the shittiest sku. Ram prices are exponential. Say BC + R1 = 25. Which makes M around 200%. Wait, that makes 16G chip cost at least 120. Okay, about 2.5 times as expensive than the most expensive retail-amount chip I found on alibaba.

              So math aint mathing, and money appears to be a floating imaginary point in petroleum integral support space.

              Oh well, companies will be companies. At least when you buy a raspberry pi you definitely are not paying them to actually specifically reduce your capabilities, gaslight you without valid engineering explanations, and just continuing to try to extinguish an unending PR nightmare using your fancy SKU cash

              In reality, their base tier SKU is likely a net money loss. Which is why they’re scared shitless somebody actually broke their dark pattern. The sales department is always right on what and how many should be sold!

    • frigge@lemmy.ml
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      7 days ago

      enshitification always makes sense. Hear me out.

      1. Company needs to make more money
      • Knock_Knock_Lemmy_In@lemmy.world
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        7 days ago

        Governance

        The Raspberry Pi Foundation is governed by a Board of Trustees that is responsible for ensuring that we use our resources effectively to achieve our charitable goals.

        It seems the Trustees can’t be trusted

            • boonhet@sopuli.xyz
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              6 days ago

              Clever accounting, one entity invoices the other and whatnot. One entity could be the reseller for the goods the other one is producing for example. Similar arrangements (no need for a foundation, just invoicing between your own entities) like that are often done e.g to pay your taxes in a lower rate jurisdiction than where you earn your money. You could set up a company that sells stuff and another company to hold the IP and then pay royalties. Etc.

              ClosedAI is looking to do something similar, go from non-profit to for-profit. Personally I’m of the opinion that such a thing should warrant investigations and possibly indictments for fraud. Because it IS fraud, or at least false advertising. If I buy a Raspberry Pi, knowing that it’s a foundation with a good cause, and the next day they announce they’re starting a for-profit company to handle everything, that’s very much false advertising, as the foundation model was be one of the factors in choosing which product to buy. If that makes sense.