they weren’t white either. and black Africans were well known to all of Africa and the Mediterranean FAR further back than written history. Greeks aren’t even white, as far as you want to use “white” as some kind of identification, it’s useless other than as a racist concept to harm other people, but the most generous inclusions are pretty fucking difficult to include Greeks in. dark skin, woolly hair, blunt noses, a language distinctly outside European language roots. you got nothing.
Sorry, man, I thought this was about that film and the actors in it, and their ethnicity. my bad. didn’t realize you were having a no context argument unrelated to this entire fucking thread.
Especially a couple thousand years ago, the Sahara was far smaller, and far lest hostile to life. The last trees only died in the Sahara about 20 or 30 years ago. Caravans crossed regularly. On top of the very easy route from Sudan to Egypt, and the Greeks were obsessed with Egypt. Even the Bible talks about Nubians in Ancient Egypt, so if even that as a “source” knows about the well-documented reality that Sub-Saharan populations were in contact and well-known individuals present in North Africa and the Levant as far back as 5,000 years ago.
I mean, did you not even think to search for this before spouting off? Literally the first search result for “did black people greece”:
This period ended right around when recorded history begins. Because the Sahara was not hostile it created a corridor for plants, and animals, and people to make an easy crossing into the levant and then further into Asia and Europe.
Yeah, it’s wild how there’s just a 5cm thick layer of salt down under the sand, and mining salt slabs from the ancient sea is how most nomadic groups flavor their food.
Plus all the rock art and ancient cities just out in the middle of nowhere today. I once bought a dinosaur tooth from a guy that 1) agreed with claims I had heard that the mountains in the Sahara still harbor things like peach trees, and 2) that there are badlands style areas where herders just find dinosaur bones lying around.
They make trivial to find references to black people and depict them in the manner they depict themselves in art.
Because their division was not “Greek” and “black” but “Greek” and “not Greek”, they simply didn’t document it.
Aristotle describes the ideal skin tone as halfway between an Ethiopian and a woman.
Black people were quite literally unremarkable to them, so it’s pretty easy to argue that an ancient Greek wouldn’t find it odd to travel with a black person.
I think I’d like the person who made the claim to tell us what they meant with “plenty”. A reference here and there to there having been a black person in Ancient Greece doesn’t feel like it’s proving the claim, but they might’ve meant just that when they said “plenty”.
Alright, demonstrate that the demographics are as you assert they are. I’ve shown you that they’re depicted in their arts and culture, both as they depicted outsiders and as they depicted themselves, as well as that they had unremarkable interactions with Ethiopia and beyond.
The link also details the history of using the racial composition of ancient Greece for all manner of racial weirdness that wasn’t representative of the Greeks themselves, up to and including Internet race weirdos who get bent out of shape about a black person being depicted in a movie set in the Mediterranean.
At this point you’ve been given plenty of evidence that there sufficient numbers of dark skinned people that it wasn’t remarkable. If you disagree that it would somehow have been remarkable, or that this isn’t a perfectly workable definition of “plenty”, then show some reason why beyond “well everyone knows”.
Hell, demonstrate that there were plenty of white people.
You’ve shown that Greeks had connection and knew about black people but that wasn’t disputed… The claim was that there was “plenty” of black people in Ancient Greece. Connections to people being in Ancient Greece aren’t the same…
I’m not sure why you are taking the burden of proving someone else’s claim but you’re now trying to spin that burden to me to prove it the other wat around. That’s just silly.
Are you asking me why I have an opinion on something? Because I do. You don’t need special reasons to make comments on a forum.
You aren’t listening. They depicted black people in the fashion that they depicted Greek people. They didn’t find them a weird novelty. The nature of ancient Greek prejudice wouldn’t have them depict people as Greek that they didn’t consider Greek. That intrinsically says something about the cultural integration, because that’s what the Greeks got weird over. If it was uncommon for them to be there they would have mentioned it because they mentioned all manner of uncommon things.
If they were a part of the society, and common enough that it wasn’t worth mentioning “…and then the one black guy in Athens showed up…”, then it seems clear to me that that’s “plenty”.
Nothing is being spun. I and others have given you evidence. You haven’t and are just making vacuous claims. Why do you have the opinion you do about the skin tone content of ancient Greece? Is it the enlightenment era paintings of Greek philosophers as white as could be? That the paint fell off the statues so now they’re just white marble? That all the black people in the pottery are “obviously” artistic choices, but the white people just … Are?
I’m sure you have a reason for thinking what you do, so what is it?
Neither a conversation nor a debate works by one person demanding evidence, denying it, and then refusing to elaborate In their beliefs.
What’s that big ol’ thing lying there on the Mediterranean? Oh, its Africa.
North Africans aren’t black though. I don’t think they were during Ancient times either
they weren’t white either. and black Africans were well known to all of Africa and the Mediterranean FAR further back than written history. Greeks aren’t even white, as far as you want to use “white” as some kind of identification, it’s useless other than as a racist concept to harm other people, but the most generous inclusions are pretty fucking difficult to include Greeks in. dark skin, woolly hair, blunt noses, a language distinctly outside European language roots. you got nothing.
I didn’t talk about anyone being white though
Sorry, man, I thought this was about that film and the actors in it, and their ethnicity. my bad. didn’t realize you were having a no context argument unrelated to this entire fucking thread.
No worries, but yeah I was just talking about the stuff I actually said
Oh fun history time!
Especially a couple thousand years ago, the Sahara was far smaller, and far lest hostile to life. The last trees only died in the Sahara about 20 or 30 years ago. Caravans crossed regularly. On top of the very easy route from Sudan to Egypt, and the Greeks were obsessed with Egypt. Even the Bible talks about Nubians in Ancient Egypt, so if even that as a “source” knows about the well-documented reality that Sub-Saharan populations were in contact and well-known individuals present in North Africa and the Levant as far back as 5,000 years ago.
I mean, did you not even think to search for this before spouting off? Literally the first search result for “did black people greece”:
Edit: meant to paste this link - my bad - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/African_Greeks https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Greeks
gasp
people migrate and stuff?
bewildered
Why didn’t the Greeks build a wall? Are they stupid?
They did but people kept sneaking in on giant wooden horses
And to add on to your point about the Sahara being less hostile, it used to be filled with life.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/African_humid_period
This period ended right around when recorded history begins. Because the Sahara was not hostile it created a corridor for plants, and animals, and people to make an easy crossing into the levant and then further into Asia and Europe.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sahara_pump_theory
Yeah, it’s wild how there’s just a 5cm thick layer of salt down under the sand, and mining salt slabs from the ancient sea is how most nomadic groups flavor their food.
Plus all the rock art and ancient cities just out in the middle of nowhere today. I once bought a dinosaur tooth from a guy that 1) agreed with claims I had heard that the mountains in the Sahara still harbor things like peach trees, and 2) that there are badlands style areas where herders just find dinosaur bones lying around.
“How dare this work of fiction not be my interpretation of historically accurate?!”
That’s sorta their complaint yeah
And my complaint is that that is a stupid fucking child’s complaint.
There were plenty of sub-Saharan African people in Ancient Greece.
Do you happen to have a source for there being plenty?
Define “plenty”.
The ancient Greeks didn’t care about skin tone in the modern sense, so there isn’t some racial census data like we have now.
https://lucas.leeds.ac.uk/article/skin-colour-in-ancient-greece/
They make trivial to find references to black people and depict them in the manner they depict themselves in art.
Because their division was not “Greek” and “black” but “Greek” and “not Greek”, they simply didn’t document it.
Aristotle describes the ideal skin tone as halfway between an Ethiopian and a woman.
Black people were quite literally unremarkable to them, so it’s pretty easy to argue that an ancient Greek wouldn’t find it odd to travel with a black person.
I think I’d like the person who made the claim to tell us what they meant with “plenty”. A reference here and there to there having been a black person in Ancient Greece doesn’t feel like it’s proving the claim, but they might’ve meant just that when they said “plenty”.
That makes it sound hard to prove
Alright, demonstrate that the demographics are as you assert they are. I’ve shown you that they’re depicted in their arts and culture, both as they depicted outsiders and as they depicted themselves, as well as that they had unremarkable interactions with Ethiopia and beyond.
The link also details the history of using the racial composition of ancient Greece for all manner of racial weirdness that wasn’t representative of the Greeks themselves, up to and including Internet race weirdos who get bent out of shape about a black person being depicted in a movie set in the Mediterranean.
At this point you’ve been given plenty of evidence that there sufficient numbers of dark skinned people that it wasn’t remarkable. If you disagree that it would somehow have been remarkable, or that this isn’t a perfectly workable definition of “plenty”, then show some reason why beyond “well everyone knows”.
Hell, demonstrate that there were plenty of white people.
You’ve shown that Greeks had connection and knew about black people but that wasn’t disputed… The claim was that there was “plenty” of black people in Ancient Greece. Connections to people being in Ancient Greece aren’t the same…
I’m not sure why you are taking the burden of proving someone else’s claim but you’re now trying to spin that burden to me to prove it the other wat around. That’s just silly.
Why not trust the other guy to make their case?
Are you asking me why I have an opinion on something? Because I do. You don’t need special reasons to make comments on a forum.
You aren’t listening. They depicted black people in the fashion that they depicted Greek people. They didn’t find them a weird novelty. The nature of ancient Greek prejudice wouldn’t have them depict people as Greek that they didn’t consider Greek. That intrinsically says something about the cultural integration, because that’s what the Greeks got weird over. If it was uncommon for them to be there they would have mentioned it because they mentioned all manner of uncommon things.
If they were a part of the society, and common enough that it wasn’t worth mentioning “…and then the one black guy in Athens showed up…”, then it seems clear to me that that’s “plenty”.
Nothing is being spun. I and others have given you evidence. You haven’t and are just making vacuous claims. Why do you have the opinion you do about the skin tone content of ancient Greece? Is it the enlightenment era paintings of Greek philosophers as white as could be? That the paint fell off the statues so now they’re just white marble? That all the black people in the pottery are “obviously” artistic choices, but the white people just … Are?
I’m sure you have a reason for thinking what you do, so what is it?
Neither a conversation nor a debate works by one person demanding evidence, denying it, and then refusing to elaborate In their beliefs.