• PugJesus@piefed.socialOPM
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    6 days ago

    Explanation: For all the many flaws of the ‘big 7’ Founding Fathers, 6/7 of them were firmly secularist. 2 were not Christians in the modern sense (Jefferson, Franklin), two may not have been Christians (Washington, Madison), two were secular Christians (Hamilton, Adams), and only one advocated for involvement of the Christian faith in public affairs (John Jay).

    In fact, for several generations after the American Revolution, Christian fundamentalists in the USA regularly condemned the foundation of the country by ‘heathens’ as wicked, and the USA itself as an aberration.

    It would seem once they saw an opportunity to worm their way into power, they reversed their opinion on the American polity.

    Nowadays, church and state remain formally separate in the USA, but in practice, there is a rapidly eroding barrier between the two due to the support of a majority of voting Americans for conservative and fascist shitheads.

    • TheTechnician27@lemmy.world
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      6 days ago

      Likewise, John Marshall, who often gets left out of these conversations but who in my opinion is worthy of being included with the ‘Big 7’ as the ‘Big 8’, was a Unitarian, but he didn’t attend church. His wife Polly did and was a devout Christian, but she would go on her own.

    • Skullgrid@lemmy.world
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      6 days ago

      only one advocated for involvement of the Christian faith in public affairs (John Jay).

      literal who?

      secularism is social progress, and thus, woke.

      • TheTechnician27@lemmy.world
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        6 days ago

        literal who?

        • Minister to Spain during the Revolutionary War.
        • A negotiator for the Treaty of Paris. Later negotiated “Jay’s Treaty” which was deeply unpopular but arguably delayed another war with Britain until Madison got drunk on imperialism one night and started the War of 1812.
        • Secretary of Foreign Affairs when the US was still under the Articles of Confederation (acting Secretary of State under Washington several months thereafter).
        • Third co-author of The Federalist Papers with Hamilton and Madison.
        • First Chief Justice of the US Supreme Court (albeit at this time the caseload was light, and the court’s stature was nothing like it became under Marshall). This mainly included establishing how the court was actually supposed to do its job.
        • Governor of New York for six years and got emancipation passed there.

        Jay was incredibly influential in the early success of the US, but no one thing he did is individually “sexy”, so he’s not liable to be the focus of a secondary school US history lesson.

    • berber@feddit.org
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      6 days ago

      but you still didn’t explain the drake and josh reference that makes the punchline.

      josh (george washington) says “where is the door (separation of church and state)?” drake says "there, where i marked it with the marker, ", and then they go back and forth about it, and then drake tries to get the saw to cut it out, but fails, because he can’t get out, because the door isn’t cut out yet. so as drake realizes that they are trapped, he says “i see the problem”, and josh iconically replies “oh DO YA?”

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1IP3qWqedHs

      • PugJesus@piefed.socialOPM
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        6 days ago

        Precisely because it was well-known that the First Amendment was meant seriously. As the Treaty of Tripoli says, signed by John Adams, one of the Founding Fathers who definitely was Christian, as ratified by the Senate:

        As the Government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian religion;

        Effectively, secularism and pluralism were still, at that time period, radical ‘liberal’ ideas that many conservatives were not onboard with. I mean, shit, Jews were still kept in ghettos in most of Europe, and in most places only Catholicism or (generally a specific strain of) Protestantism were accepted, rarely both. Whoever heard of a country that wasn’t founded on GOD!?