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Author is painting men as needing forgiveness as if we’re just crossing lines like it’s our nature.
That’s patriarchy baby. Same genesis as “boys will be boys” or basically that males can’t control themselves, so society needs adapt to their fickle moods
Comment section here showing the user demographics of Lemmy lol
Good lord the discourse here is about as well as the man or bear discussions.
Something I notice is how everytime someone makes these kinds of criticisms, the counterarguments turn into a pit of semantics and extropolations. As if the original post was a massive research thesis rather than just women venting frustration over the entitlement and danger they’re subjected to daily.
You gotta look past the specific wording to see the overarching societal themes, emotions, and issues. It’s like those magic eye pictures.
It’s insane. They get absolutely bent the fuck out of shape when women don’t immediately trust them to go into dark alleys with them and when a woman just says explicitly, off the top, what she wants and it doesn’t line up with their desires they go feral telling her unreasonable she’s being.
They talk such big shit about being generalized and then in turn refuse to accept a woman’s individual choices and preferences. They don’t even stop to understand that women cannot read minds to know who’s safe or not, and frankly just in that they kinda show exactly why they might be having trouble.
—
“I’d just like some basic emotional maturity.”
“Ok so this one time a woman was mean to me so real quick I’m gunna weaponize that and tell you that it gives me permission to be a big fucking baby.”
They get absolutely bent the fuck out of shape
Yet you’re the one whining 🤔
“No you”
Just stop.
What does this even mean?
“Men lose their mind” = they start shouting and shitting on the floor in disbelief?
“Daughters aren’t as forgiving as their wives”: forgiving what exactly? Mistakes?
It’s like they think they’re saying something profound and agreeing with each other but saying nothing of value (as is natural on twitter).
I think it’s speaking about women who “allow” bad behavior.
Like, maybe the man’s mom used to do all his chores for him without asking, so he comes to expect it. His wife, who is not his mother, says he has to do his own laundry and maybe puts their foot down about the whole “weaponized incompetence” some men use. The man is surprised, because he didn’t expect his wife to be “less forgiving” than this mother, who just gave us and did it for him.
For daughters, sometimes daughters (or just children in general) , as an outside observer to the relationship, can tell that one parent is shit (in this case, the father). While the wife may go, “He didn’t meant it, he’s just tired,” the daughter may not be “as forgiving” and just say he is abusive.
However, I don’t think either of these are gender specific. Just depnsends on the dynamic at play.
Or, you know, kids haven’t got the same grasp of adult life that grown ups do.
I have a 23 year old daughter. She has a job, an education, is currently travelling the world and she’s still really very immature in many ways. I know there be will be people that age right now reading this and hating it and you know you’re really still very far away from really getting this but there is SO much in life that we have to learn to let go. SO many failures of our own and of others that we need to find a way to live with. It took me a long, long time to really get to the point where I was able to forgive the world for being a place where certain bad things had happened. That’s the thing that finally allowed me to keep looking for goodness, to struggle for hope instead of being angry with reality. You look deep into any maladjustment be it drug addiction, eating disorders, rage, pretty much any negative compulsion - deep down in there it’s this. It’s this inability to forgive the world for being a place where bad things can happen. Which is clearly a child-like response to not getting our way. Only now “getting our way”, like it’s not that you were refused a treat but rather you’re waching the bigger part of humanity suffer and realising you’re near powerless to do anything about it. Two things can be true. The world can be a bad place sometimes but it can also be good. If you can’t forgive it for its failings you’ll struggle to see the good side.
I’m right there with you. I’m utterly confused.
What is there to forgive? Is thore some inherent shittyness in men that needs overlooking on the part of women, or suppressing on the part of men?
Or is this just talking about how gender equality as improved with each generation, so as the same dudes age, the younger women in their lives are asking them to be more and more fair?
Not inherent, no, but culturally ingrained crappy behaviours? Sure.
There is a fine line between valid criticism of gender roles & sexism.
An example of the former would be, “Men are dangerous for women”. Of course not all men are dangerous, but it describes the experience of many women & how they have to navigate the world, to not be assaulted.
This one describes the dynamic of a relationship between individuals & assigns a thought pattern to one of those individuals, based on their gender.
Maybe I missed some nuances here & I would be glad to be enlightened, but this looks like plain sexism.
There’s a long, documented, researched, history of men being raised to expect things from women. It’s not just housework but all kinds of things are taken much more seriously when a woman does something “wrong” than when a man does. It takes a lot of serious introspection and effort to break out of that programming so it’s not a surprise that the majority of men don’t, or only do so partially. The default state is that this stuff is sort of “invisible” because it seems so normal to how things are. So no, this is a factual description of a “standard” behaviour for men that only some are able to avoid.
If you at all accept that there are harmful but culturally ingrained gender roles then this is a natural consequence of that for anyone who hasn’t deeply and actively questioned them. Then as those roles are indeed slowly being broken down it stands to reason that each successive generation is less willing to put up with them - but if you still see them as normal it will come as a surprise.
Long documents and researched history.
They say with no support.
This is a chat thread on a meme post, not an academic paper. “Gender roles exist” does not need a citation.
Women expect things from men: “women power!”
Men expect things from women: MISOGYNY !
Expectations of women of men: basic human decency, don’t rape
Expectations of men of women: be completely subservient in every way
atro_city: “these are the same picture”
Yes, those are the only expectations all men and women have /s
Then as those roles are indeed slowly being broken down it stands to reason that each successive generation is less willing to put up with them - but if you still see them as normal it will come as a surprise.
Except…entrenched gender roles are normal. This is expected human behaviour for 90% of the world. Equality, be it gender, age, ethnic or religious, is…just not how things work. It may be distasteful for you personally, but the rest of humanity doesn’t give a toss - Western civilisation is a thin smear of civility which only popped up in the past couple of hundred years, and what’s worked quite well for millennia is what’s still working pretty effectively for several billion people.
There is no absolute right and absolute wrong to gender equality, and that there is a regression or progression over time, merely opinions shaped by culture, background and opportunities. The events of the past 10 years have convinced me that the “good” parts of liberalism are unsustainable because people at their core are just…selfish. The only way to convince them to change something is if it is in their self interest. Regrettably, equality rarely aligns with self interest because it requires relinquishing something. Equality and equity of opportunity only exist when the opportunity exist. Otherwise it’s back to the dumb old shit we used to do.
Edited to add:
I didn’t phrase it well above,
The ground state for humanity is inequality. Whether we wish it or not.
The pursuit of equality and equity means these things need to be prioritised above other things.
It is hard to convince people to prioritise something they are not invested in, especially if they don’t benefit from it or value it.
There is no absolute right and absolute wrong to gender equality
Except there absolutely is an absolute right and absolute wrong to gender equality (and more importantly, equity) - the genders are either equal or they’re not. You’ve either achieved equality, or you haven’t. You either want equality, or you don’t.
And you clearly don’t.
Lie to yourself and make up as much pseudo scientific nonsense as you like, but it won’t change that you’re just another wilfully ignorant self serving misogynist who is wrong. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Except there absolutely is an absolute right and absolute wrong to gender equality (and more importantly, equity)
There is not. Equality is arbitrary. Equity is arbitrary. They are ideals / values that we each hold individually, and rank individually. Clearly, equality is an important value for you. Good. But your value of equality is shaped by you, not anyone else.
If you take your value set and say this should be the value set which everyone else has - you won’t change them. That’s my point. Equality is a value. It is ranked amongst other values. Do you value equality more than security? Financial independence? Safety? Control? Family? Social status? Faith? Children? Education? Career? Mastery of skill? Respect? Knowledge? Influence? Conservatism? Freedom? The environment?
For a given person you engage with, whether it be online, in person, in a relationship, over the phone, randomly in a street - their value set is intrinsic to them. Equality might not rank in their top five, or ten values. When you speak up on equality and say “you should”, people who don’t share your value set hear something different. What they hear is “You are wrong”. Speaking of which:
And you clearly don’t
you’re just another wilfully ignorant self serving misogynist who is wrong
sigh
That’s a shame. I’m sorry that you feel that way. Have to say it’s the first time I’ve been called a misogynist. I think if you met me you wouldn’t think that at all.
Your opinion of me doesn’t really matter - it doesn’t change anything. What did change things for me was reading The Mental Load by Emma. It crystallised what I already knew, and helped me to better understand the difference between contribution, effort and load.
Do you want to know why?
There’s a long, documented, researched, history of women being raised to expect things from men too. But if you seriously think this is the average expectation of men towards women, then you should go outside and touch some grass. Just because toxic gender stereotypes exist, does not mean you have to acknowledge every bullshit sexist stereotype as the truth.
Women know that it isn’t every man, you’re not being helpful here. Women tell us all the time that they don’t feel safe and can back it up with so many examples of people that come off as good right until they’re putting her body in separate garbage bags. For a less intense version of that they come around to trust people and even accidentally the man ends up defensive and trying to make excuses for poor behaviour(s).
They deal with this shit all the fucking time and you complaining like you’re the victim in a post about their struggles is exactly what they’re fucking talking about.
Yes, women deal with literal serial killers all the time. Touch grass and come back to reality. 🙄
I literally said it was an intense example. If that’s what you took from my comment then good fucking lord…
You’re being a shitty person right now, I hope one day you can gather the strength to acknowledge it and do better.
You’re being a shitty person right now, I hope one day you can gather the strength to acknowledge it and do better.
No, and I throw that right back at you. Because you’re just supporting terrible stereotypes that further aid in the great divide and ultimately just feed the incel community. It’s like me saying all women are cheaters because that’s basically my experience, but at least I can acknowledge that I’m just an easy target for female predators instead of shoving it onto the gender as a whole. When you say “all men blah blah blah” then it does not matter if you truly mean it or not, you’re still ending up attacking and insulting everyone who is not part of that shit. And what’s the next reaction to it? “Oh don’t be so sensitive / fragile!” - which basically comes back to just being a toxic masculinity comment about men having to be strong and take it without complaining.
There’s a long, documented, researched, history of men being raised to expect things from women.
I find the implication that there is not also a long, documented, researched, history of women being raised to expect things from men, quite amusing in its ignorance.
That is in absolutely no way implied by that statement; the existance of a truth does not imply the existance of it’s inverse.
yes but focusing on one side of the discussion ignoring its counterpart is a clear sign of bias, so despite being technically correct it’s unhelpful
I hate that I have to raise a son in an environment that is becoming so hateful towards men just for existing. I saw a picture of a woman at a protest against a child molester and she had a sign that says “not all men but it’s ALWAYS a man” As someone who was molested by a woman when I was a kid, that shit is offensive and aggressive.
The down votes say it all. This shit is why its hard to get men onto the left.
This shit is why its hard to get men onto the left.
Exactly. You have one side that doesn’t give a shit about men’s issues and demonizes them for it and the other side that also doesn’t give a shit about men’s issues but gives the occasional lip service or pretends to listen on occasion.
Neither is a good choice, but one is not openly hostile, and that makes it easy to fall that way.
Damn, I can’t tell if this is honest or some really deep cutting sarcasm/satire.
Edit: the autism got me again
You could not have proven their point more strongly if you tried.
Fact is, even if it was “always a man”, the fact of the matter is that the vast, vast majority of men don’t do it, making the assumptions about men not only immoral, but inaccurate.
White supremacists use the exact same logic, pointing at crime statistics, to justify prejudice toward black people. This is the male sex version of “around blacks never relax”, nothing more, don’t pretend otherwise.
I’m a man, I’m not a rapist. In fact I’m the survivor of childhood sexual abuse. It’s absurdly offensive to me to be called the thing I hate most, an rapist. And I hate that I’m fair game at being called that, simply because I was born the “bad gender”.
The thing is I like being a man, I’m proud to be a man, I’m happy with my life. but even saying that makes people look at you weird. I have no idea why.
Yeah, modern narratives basically teach men to hate themselves. I drank the Kool aid until my early 20s until I dated a narcissists and came to the realization that abusive pieces of shit come in all genders. And then when I need to turn to look for a role model there is nothing out there except right wing douche bags. Then we worry why young men gravitate towards the alt right.
Cool, another post to shit on guys just minding their own business.
Did you also get upset when they picked the bear?
Well how should we feel? Are we only allowed to feel bad for women?
Look at this point I know more women with unrealistic relationship expectations than men.
The world has changed a ton in the past twenty years. There’s been a lot of discussion about toxicity in regards to male gender roles, and fundamentals changes to what’s acceptable for a man to expect in a relationship.
There hasn’t really been that discussion in women. While many women have perfectly fair expectations, there are a lot of women who will expect a man to completely reject gendered expectations of them, while having a ton of expectations of a man. It’s almost a joke among my single male friends that the more vocal someone is about being a feminist, the more likely they’ll expect you to pay for the date.
There’s also a subculture of women behaving in ways that would be considered objectively toxic a decade ago, but have been normalized due to the whole oppressor/oppressed culture war narrative. I’ve seen women bail on long term relationships in ways that are 100 percent because they just want to sleep around. I’ve seen women push their husband into an “ethically polyamaorous” relationship that always is extremely one sided. I’ve also seen a lot of women with an “I can do better” mentality that nobody in a relationship would have to put up with.
I’m not saying women are universally awful or anything. I’m just saying I think we need to have the same conversation around how women behave that we had in regards to how men behave.
Most of the dudes I know who aren’t currently married just don’t expect to have a relationship at all at this point in their lives (mostly middle age IT guys). The consensus is online dating isn’t worth it to even bother with and it’s hard AF to meet anyone in the real world so they focus on their hobbies and socialize with their bros instead. There’s no animosity towards women and there are a few women that come out with us when we go to the bar but nobody is pursuing romance.
My friends have better luck, but it’s a constant grind. Also, as far as I can tell, a guy’s chance of getting into a relationship is basically a thin proxy for how attractive he is. Meanwhile for women the chances seem to be proxy for a combination of genuine kindness and realistic expectations. Any women with remotely realistic expectations is off the market in six weeks flat.
I’m not saying women are universally awful or anything.
You obviously aren’t, but it speaks volumes all on its own that you felt there was a need to state that, only bolstering your other points about this one-sidedness.
Idk I basically stopped talking about this in mixed gender company in real life. My guy friends get it, my SO gets it, and a few close female friends get it. However most women I meet would treat a statement like this as an attack on them, even if they themselves aren’t engaging in this type of behavior.
